Pro Cyclist Dylan Johnson on YouTube and Sharing the Science of Getting Faster
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Dylan Johnson’s skill on the bike, coupled with his popular YouTube videos about exercise physiology and racing tactics have put him at the forefront of cycling culture.
He’s a renowned professional cyclist racing in the Lifetime Grand Prix gravel and mountain bike national series and the co-founder of Ignition Coaching Co. In this episode, he talks to host Andrew Vontz about how he balances it all while remaining competitive in the ever-evolving cycling landscape.
Dylan shares what he does to recover after sleeping three hours and traveling cross country the day after a race and how his parents gently cultivated the deep interest in cycling that took him from a kid having fun ripping around on a mountain bike to a highly influential figure at the forefront of a cultural phenomenon.
Dylan hosts the Bonk Bros Podcast with previous Choose the Hard Way guest Scott McGill about the latest happenings in the world of bike racing. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts.
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Choose the Hard Way is a podcast where guests share stories about how hard things build stronger humans. Sign up for the newsletter to get the story behind these stories updates and more. If you’d like to suggest a guest or say hello, DM @hardwaypod on social or send an email to choosethehardway@gmail.com.
Host Andrew Vontz has spent more than 25 years telling and shaping the stories of the world’s top performers, brands and businesses. He has held executive and senior leadership roles at the social network for athletes Strava and the human performance company TRX. His byline has appeared in outlets like Rolling Stone, Outside magazine, The Los Angeles Times and more.
Today he advises and consults with businesses and nonprofits on high-impact storytelling strategies and coaches leaders to become high-performance communicators. Find him on LinkedIn or reach out to choosethehardway@gmail.com
In This Episode:
Dylan Johnson Instagram | YouTube
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Dylan Johnson 3:02
You know what the hardest thing about pesca stage races, you know, they have, they have these time downhill second sections. There's an enduro component to it, right. And I swear, I ride the downhills during the Pisco stage race, the worst that I've ever written them. And it's simply because I'm so gassed from just doing the climb to get up there. So my heart rate is at 190 beats per minute. And now I've got to try to ride this downhill fast. And I just, I have quite a hard time doing it, to be honest with you.
Andrew Vontz 3:35
Yeah, it's something else once you're fully gassed, and then have to retain control of the bike when you're in the middle of like a multi hour ride, although it's a shorter race for you.
Dylan Johnson 3:45
Yeah, yeah. When I'm when I'm just out on a training ride, and I'm ripping those down hills. I feel like I do them a lot faster and Strava would seem to indicate that that is the case as well. So I don't know. Maybe if I was taking the Enduro seriously, I would actually chill a little bit for five minutes before I hit that segment, but I was never doing that.
Andrew Vontz 4:06
Get the heart rate down. I also, I noticed in Karis videos this year, I hadn't seen this in his videos in previous years that he actually was pushing his bike on a number of the hiker bikes sections, which I had never been anywhere near the front of the race, but I'd always wondered, are the pros actually getting off and pushing and it seems to be that they are actually
Dylan Johnson 4:30
at the Pisco stage race. Absolutely. You got to hike the top of pilot and you've got to and now they're doing black from the top to I don't know if you ever did it when they did all of black but you got to hike the top of black as well. Yeah, so yeah,
Andrew Vontz 4:46
good time. So you're just back from sea otter. I think I saw maybe an Instagram post about your experience in the you rode the Fago XL right?
Dylan Johnson 4:57
Yeah, that's, that's the one that was part of The Grand Prix that's the only race I did out there. I mean, they had a lot of other races going on, but I came just for that one.
Andrew Vontz 5:06
How was the start?
Dylan Johnson 5:09
So I man, I hope somebody got a picture or video or something. I last year, it's it's starts on the Laguna Seca race track. And it was about a 92nd Climb before you go straight into single track on the paved race track. So and it was roughly about 90 seconds again, this year this the start changed a little bit, but it was roughly 90 seconds of pavement straight onto a single track. And last year, we went all out from the, from the gun to the single track just as hard as you could go for 90 seconds. And I was psyching myself up to do that. Again. I was like, All right, 90 set my 92nd MAX power. I got to do that at the beginning of this race. 90 seconds as hard as you can go psyching myself up for that all week, the morning of the race. I was psyching myself up for it, I was on the starting line prepared to do my 92nd MAX power. And then I didn't get the memo that apparently we were going to chill for the first minute. So I don't know everybody, everybody wasn't going that hard. And I just went as hard as I could. And apparently I had a gap on the entire field. I was in first place for about 30 seconds of the race. But of course in doing that I kind of blew myself up. So by the top of the climb, probably 30 seconds before we hit the single track 40 Dudes past me and it ended up going from a great start to a rather poor start. And then the whole rest of the race I was I was kind of picking guys off and it went it went decent.
Andrew Vontz 6:47
At least you didn't have a pizza 2022 experience. It's the beginning of the race.
Dylan Johnson 6:53
Yeah, yeah. No, though, that would have been worse crashing. Would he break his wrist or something or fractured his wrist? Yeah,
Andrew Vontz 7:00
yeah, I think he broke his wrist. Did anyone go hard left into the sand on start this year?
Dylan Johnson 7:08
No, I think they had that. That's that sandpark blocked off, actually. So you can do that.
Andrew Vontz 7:15
That's generous. So for anybody who's listening who's not familiar with the lifetime series, the lifetime series is it's gravel, it's mountain bike, it mixes different disciplines. And then they hand select a group of how many riders is that? 4042
Dylan Johnson 7:34
This year, it's 35 men and 35 women. So 70 total.
Andrew Vontz 7:38
Right? And there was there an application process this year,
Dylan Johnson 7:43
there was an application process. And so last year, there was an application process as well. And I think that lifetime got some heat from people for you know, having the the application be like they asked him questions like what you know, what's your what's your social media? You know, what are you going to do to promote the series? And I think they got some heat for that like, Oh, are you just choosing people with large social media followings? Are you actually choosing fast people? This year, it seemed like they were just choosing fast people. It seemed like they cared a lot less about social media. And you could tell from the application.
Andrew Vontz 8:22
And how I mean, you have just done the first race so far. But how did the field compare this year to the field at the same race last year?
Dylan Johnson 8:32
Yeah, I sound like a broken record at this point. But these races, just the competition just keeps getting more and more and more stacked. I mean, the amount of races that I can show you where I had a higher power output a higher average speed, a faster finishing time, and a worse placing. I mean, it's like every single race I do know. And it's you know, thank God I have a power meter because if I didn't, I might think that I'd be getting slower when I'm in fact getting faster. It's crazy. How does that feel? I don't know. Doesn't feel great. I guess it doesn't. Well, it feels good to improve right? It feels good to know that I'm I'm improving at least physically but to be worse on the results sheet. I mean, obviously that doesn't feel good. So
Andrew Vontz 9:23
yeah. And have you changed your approach to training to prepare for the lifetime series was here
Dylan Johnson 9:31
a little bit so I made I made a quite clickbait title video earlier this year that said like changing my training or something which I think a lot of people if they're just looking at the thumbnail in the title might think that I'm completely doing a 180 In reality, if you watch that video, it's it's quite small changes that I'm doing little tweaks here and there. But you know, I'm I I don't want to sound pessimistic here. But I did a video and I've done research on how much genetics affects cycling performance. And the unfortunate truth is that genetics affects cycling performance quite a bit. And as I get older, I guess I come to the realization and start to accept the fact that, you know, where we're all born with certain cards, and you just you got to work with what you got.
Andrew Vontz 10:31
Do you feel like you have headroom to do more with the cards that you have?
Dylan Johnson 10:35
I hope I do. I think that I'm not I'm not I don't. On another podcast that I have, we actually have a conversation quite frequently about, you know, what somebody's genetic ceiling is genetic ceiling being the fastest that you could possibly be. If everything in your life was optimized, you were doing the right training, the right sleep, the right nutrition, all of that. I don't think I'm there. But I don't I don't think I'm that far off, to be honest with you.
Andrew Vontz 11:10
What do you do outside of training that people might not know about to keep dialed in, so that you can perform at your highest level?
Dylan Johnson 11:20
I mean, there's there's the typical things like sleep and nutrition. I have a very hard time sleeping more than seven or eight hours. I know that there's some athletes that are talking about sleeping 10 hours a day. I feel like I just can't physically do it. I don't know about yourself. I don't you know, I don't know if you've tried to sleep more than eight hours on a regular basis. But it's just hard to do. I
Andrew Vontz 11:44
have two small children. So they make sure that I don't do that.
Dylan Johnson 11:48
Okay. Yeah, no, I don't I don't have children yet. I am very impressed at these World Tour pros who? Like I think Vinod guard, I butchered his name, but he took his child up on the podium at the Tour de France. I'm like, man, dude, is your wife doing all the work? Or? What's the deal there?
Andrew Vontz 12:12
If you have to ask the question? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, you know, gents void. Famously, I think he's got like five or six kids as well. But, you know, I mean, times are changing. But World Tour pros mean, they used to be on the road, nine months out of the year. I know, it's different now particular for yumbo visma. But I mean, in addition to everything that you're doing with your racing, and part of why I really wanted to talk to you is you do this really interesting mix of you have a very deep background in understanding training, exercise physiology, as well as equipment. You're also a really successful YouTube creators. I love your videos you make somehow you draw me and I'm always like, I'm not going to watch another one. I'm going to bed and then I'm like, but I got to know, I got to know does strength training actually making me a better cyclist at 40 7am? I going to the World Tour in 2020. But I'd love to know Dylan, what was the first YouTube video that you made? And what was your intention? When you made it?
Dylan Johnson 13:15
Yeah, so I worked for I went to college for exercise science. And then right out of college, I did an internship at CTS and then I became a CTS coach. So as a cycling coach right out of college, and to be honest with you, they weren't giving me a whole lot of clients, and I was probably making $500, a month off of coaching very few athletes. And at that time, I remember my my first summer after graduating college, I was I was paying rent and paying for groceries off of prize money that I was making off of races, like I go to a race and win $500 or $1,000 and be like sweet, let's go straight to rent. Which is, you know, not not a sustainable way to live. But I kind of started the YouTube channel to promote my coaching. And if you go back and watch those really early videos, I do say that I'm a CTS coach and I talked about CTS a little bit. And it it worked really well, to be honest with you. It was probably about two months before I had my first hit video or viral video. It's all relative what viral is but it was about Zwift training plans and how Zwift training plans aren't great. And that one really took off. And I think that was sort of the catalyst for the channel doing well. And it brought in a lot of a lot of clients.
Andrew Vontz 14:49
And how much time were you putting into making your videos at that point in time? And did you have a strategy for how this was going to unfold over time? Are you just kind of seeing what happened?
Dylan Johnson 15:00
Yeah, I don't know if I had a strategy, but I, I, you know, I've watched YouTube forever. And I'm a fan of YouTube. And even in the very first video, which I uploaded and to zero subscribers, I said, subscribe. You know, I was like, subscribe to the channel. So I had this idea that I wanted this channel to be a YouTube channel, I wanted it, I wanted it to get bigger, and I wanted to have some sort of audience. The very first video I made was actually about how strength training affects cycling performance. And while I think the information in that video is good, I cringe a little bit when I go back and watch those really old ones because my delivery isn't as good. The editing isn't as good. I didn't have a microphone. It looks very amateur. But
Andrew Vontz 15:53
when did you feel like you were starting to develop an actual template for the style of videos that you were making? Because I would say today? There's a there's a Dylan Johnson style, right? Like I Yeah, certainly elements I expect in every video, like how did those come about? And how do you think about what the template is?
Dylan Johnson 16:12
Right? Yeah, there's definitely a template, there's, you know, there's the intro, then I get into the science, and I'm going to throw in a couple backwards hat jokes in there. And then there's going to be a conclusion. Like, if you watch my videos, you can see that they follow the same arc most of the time. Yeah, I mean, I would say that I probably it wasn't long. I mean, it was probably two or three months in where that really started to become my style of video and, and it hasn't deviated too much. Although I have started to add in more interviews, like I interviewed Josh fourtner and Steven Siler and, and those have done quite well, it's quite a different style of video, but I liked doing that as well.
Andrew Vontz 17:00
And one of your videos that I've, I feel like was one of your most controversial videos, that really mean you have a large followership and your views are in the hundreds of 1000s. But the video that you made about polarized training versus sweetspot training, I felt like that, just like shots fired, things started to kick off, all over in the exercise physiology and training space and different coaching practices felt compelled to respond because you had really shaken the snowglobe Did you know that that was going to be like caused so much heat when you drop that video? Yeah,
Dylan Johnson 17:39
I mean, I know that. You know, I know that there's some companies out there that kind of have really been pushing, quote, sweetspot training really hard. So yeah, I mean, I knew I knew it'd be a little bit controversial. The one I knew that would be more controversial was shortly after that, where I specifically called out trainer road, because I think that they are the most the most egregious pushers of this sweet spot mentality. And I was I was, I didn't, I wasn't sure how the trainer road video would be received at the time because there are so many fans of TrainerRoad but almost, I would say 98% of the people that watch that video are like, Yeah, you're right, Dylan, this is this is a bit ridiculous. And, and I'll say too, I got so many emails, D DMS, comments. I mean, we're we're talking about in the quadruple digits of people saying somewhere on the internet that they got overtrained using TrainerRoad. And I'm, I'm that's one of the videos I'm most proud of, because I feel like I feel like they needed to be called out.
Andrew Vontz 18:58
Subsequently, did you run into those guys in real life? And did you ever discuss the video?
Dylan Johnson 19:04
People who got overtrained on TrainerRoad? Did I
Andrew Vontz 19:07
know that know the people who own TrainerRoad and the employees?
Dylan Johnson 19:11
Oh, no, I don't think I've ever talked to a TrainerRoad employee in real life. Trying to think
Andrew Vontz 19:18
you haven't talked to like Jonathan, now, people who do the podcast now. It's interesting, because you must have been in the same spaces in places at some point in time.
Dylan Johnson 19:28
I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure we were I mean, I attend a lot of the races, you know, that, that I'm sure they go to but ya know, I've never I've never talked to them in real life. I would assume that they don't have a high, you know, they don't think very highly of me. But who knows? I mean, maybe maybe they respected the video.
Andrew Vontz 19:50
Yeah. And as you think about where you wanted to take the channel over time, what's your bigger vision for what you wanted to do with the YouTube work?
Dylan Johnson 19:59
Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't really see myself changing course with anything, I'd probably just be more of, you know, doing what I'm doing. I think that regular viewers will probably have noticed that I don't upload as frequently as I used to, I used to be very strict about doing a weekly upload. So it's every single week, I was uploading a video. And I don't nearly do that anymore. If, you know, some, some months, I do two videos, some months, I only do one video, so. But I could see myself continuing the channel for a long time. And when I retire from trying to ride my bike fast, which I'm currently doing, I'll probably put more effort into the channel, and that'll be my main thing.
Andrew Vontz 20:48
And what's your workflow, like for one of these videos, and again, if people aren't familiar with the videos, they're very heavily researched, you're getting into the science behind training, you're referencing multiple studies, meta analyses, you're going deep into them, you're pulling out specific examples, you're analyzing sample size, and then you're making prescriptive recommendations about things that people might want to do based on what the science suggests. So how much time goes into making a video? And what's the process like from you have an idea to the end of the video?
Dylan Johnson 21:22
Yeah. Yeah, my videos require quite a bit of work. And, and sometimes I get jealous of these YouTubers who it seems like, the videos that they make are quite low effort, and they get a lot of views. But you know, that's neither here nor there. But I, so I'll have an idea. And then I'll start researching and researching can, you know, researching can take quite a while. I mean, that can be a whole day if I were to spend my whole day on it. And then, and then there's the script writing, which can also be another whole day. And then there's the there's actually filming the video. And I think a lot of people think that I maybe well, I don't know if a lot of people, but some people I've heard tell me that they think that I just say all of this, all of this off the top of my head while I'm filming, which I don't do I have a script there. And I look at it and I'll read two sentences in my head. I'm like, Okay, now, I gotta say that back to the camera, I say it back to the camera. So I screw up. And I say it back to the camera again. And then I have to edit all of that together. So a 15 minute video might be an hour and a half of actual footage of me talking and looking and screwing up and talking and looking again. And then I added all that together so that it's concise. And that, you know, the editing process can be a whole nother day as well. So it's it's, it's very time intensive to put out just one video.
Andrew Vontz 22:59
And are you shooting and editing on your own?
Dylan Johnson 23:01
I am. Yeah, I've considered hiring an editor. And I'm sure they would do a great job. But I think that I think that the editing process is not really what holds me back from uploading more frequently because usually by the point that I've got the whole thing filmed, I'm highly motivated to put it out within the next day or two. It's usually when I've gotten it's interesting the the further I The further away I am from the finished product, the less motivated I am. And the further I get to the finished product, the more motivated I am to spend every second of my day, just getting the video out. So I think hiring an editor would be helpful, but I don't think that's what's holding me back from putting videos out more frequently.
Andrew Vontz 23:55
What's the part of the process that you enjoy the least?
Dylan Johnson 24:02
That's a good question. Probably. Probably filming. I'm not saying I don't like filming I do like filming but I don't enjoy it nearly as much as doing the research. I like doing the research. I like writing the script. I actually like editing to be honest with you, but the filming part I just feel like I gotta get myself psyched up and I got a you know, I gotta I gotta be higher energy and and again, I don't I don't dislike it but it's probably my least favorite part
Andrew Vontz 24:37
is what you're doing on camera very dissimilar from who you are as a person day to day like Are you do you have to like play a character when you're doing this?
Dylan Johnson 24:47
I don't know. Well, you tell me. Do I seem similar or dissimilar to how I am on YouTube.
Andrew Vontz 24:52
I don't have a large enough sample size to decide.
Dylan Johnson 24:56
Good answer. Um, I so I do know that there are some YouTubers that seem to really put on a character when the cameras rolling. I don't think that I do that, I think that if you if you start talking to me about nerdy bike related things, I will be the same person that I am on camera, I'll start pulling up, I'll start pulling up studies, if I can remember them off the top my head, I'll start pulling up stats and everything. So I don't necessarily think that I'm a different person on camera.
Andrew Vontz 25:28
Where are you going to do your research? Are you going into PubMed? Or are you going into other databases?
Dylan Johnson 25:34
Yeah, PubMed and Google Scholar. And then when I want to get the full article, I just use sai hub. So for those who don't know, you know, you have to, you have to pay for these articles in order to see the full thing. Or you can just take the take the URL and put it into sai hub, and then they give you the full article right there, which some, you know, some people would be like, Oh, well, that's, you know, that's illegal. But I, most scientists are actually on the side of Sai hub, because they want their they want their work to be available to everyone. As opposed to these, you know, these journals just kind of hoarding them for money. So that's what I do
Andrew Vontz 26:18
to go in a totally different direction. When did you become really intrigued by bike racing and decided that it was something that you wanted to do professionally?
Dylan Johnson 26:30
Yeah. Probably at 14 years old. So I started mountain biking when I was 12. And then I started racing when I was 14. And I don't, I won't say that I wanted to be professional at 14 Because I have no idea how you know if that's in the cards for me or not, when I'm 14, but I mean, I fell in Yeah, I fell in love with bike racing that early. And I mean, I would say from 14 to now. If there's anything that has been unchanging it is that I love bike racing, and I want to be as fast as I can possibly be.
Andrew Vontz 27:13
What do you love about it?
Dylan Johnson 27:16
Um, I don't know. That's a That's a good question. I mean, I think that I think that I'm, I'm a competitive person. And, you know, it's a it's a competitive outlet. And it was something, it was something that I was good at, from a young age, which I think I think that bias is all of us. You know, I think that if I had done something else, like, I'm trying to think of something that I wouldn't be good at, I don't know, like basketball or something. I don't I don't even know if I'd be good at basketball because I never played it. But let's say I played basketball and I sucked at it. Probably be like, Well, I don't like that. But if I was good at basketball, maybe I'd be like, I love basketball. That's my whole life. I think that probably biases people too, right? So I was I was good at it from a young age and, and I have quite an obsessive personality. Like when I go down certain hobbies or rabbit holes, I, you know, they can kind of consume me. And bike racing did that for me, from a very early age. So
Andrew Vontz 28:34
we're the rewards and the feedback that you got that validated your interest in the sport? Was it all intrinsic? Was it just your feeling of wow, I'm doing this? It feels good. I want to do more of it. Or what was going on in the environment around you? Like what was your what? Should your parents have two sports and activities that you did?
Dylan Johnson 28:58
Yeah, this is this is an interesting conversation because you know, I'll I'll a lot of the racers that I raced with as a junior, I would say 50% of them don't raise any more, they just kind of got burnt out by the time they were adults. And I see that a lot. And I think a lot of it has to do with you know, you're talking about is it intrinsic or extrinsic motivation? Do you? Do you do it because you love it? Or is there something else is there? Is there money? Is there peer pressure? Is there parent pressures, whatever it is, that's an extrinsic motivator. And I do find that if it's if it's the parents that are pushing it on the kids, they are much more likely to burn out than if it's the kids that want to do it. And for me, it was completely my decision to race. In fact, my parents, they were my parents have been nothing but supportive of my cycling for my entire cycling career. But I remember when I was in high school, they were like Like, they were telling me, I was training too much, and I was taking racing too seriously. So if anything, they were trying to hold me back from taking racing so seriously. As opposed to the other way around, where were my parents were really pushing me that was never, that was never the case. So I think that that's, that's a big thing for having a, you know, raising your child, as a lifelong athlete, it's got to be the motivation has to come with within. And if you, if you push them really hard to do, you know, do this, whether it's cycling, or it's any other sport, or if it's not even a sport, it's just some something else, if you if you push them too hard in that direction, I think a lot of times they end up, you know, just dropping it by the time they get to adulthood.
Andrew Vontz 30:55
And Dylan is I'm sure, you know, and run into all the time. And for anybody who's listening, who is not a cyclist, or doesn't race bikes, I think there's a perception that it's similar to going out and doing a turkey trot, or, you know, perhaps a marathon where people are just kind of going at this steady state. And it's this human versus themselves, kind of experience and for people who get to a level where they can actually be competitive and race. And for me, it's sort of very low level, kind of always has been. And I've gotten a few results I'm proud of, but certainly not at your level. But the aspect of the sport that I think I enjoy the most, when it comes to competition. And this is whether I'm going down in my garage and doing a Zwift race on a Wednesday, or I'm going out and doing a group ride with buddies are doing an actual race, it's once you are fit enough to actually have this strategic component. It's really it's like game theory on wheels. And there's always this very complex differential equation happening, where you're calibrating, is this person fatigued? Have they eaten enough? Wow, they look like they were really uncomfortable on that last climb, can I can I hurt them through my effort and make them stop and impose my will and make them quit? Which those are the aspects that I find to be really fascinating? Or what what can someone else do to make me stop? And can I move that line forward so that I can go a little bit farther next time for you when you're out there racing at the level that you're racing at? We'd like what do you find to be most intriguing other than actually winning, which, of course, is really fun, but with within the moment, what are the aspects of the sport that you really just like enjoy intellectually or as an athlete,
Dylan Johnson 32:49
I think that's a great point you bring up because out of all of the endurance sports, you know, if we're talking about running, or swimming, or rowing, or I'm not saying that those sports aren't tactical, those sports can be very tactical. But I would say that by far, cycling is the most tactical endurance sport, especially if we're talking about road cycling, it can be extremely tactical, and your tactics can make or break whether you're going to win the race or not. Whereas, you know, a lot of times in a running, this isn't always the case. But a lot of times in a running race, the strongest runner there is most likely going to be the winner. Whereas in a road race, I mean, there's there's maybe, you know, 10 or 20 different riders that that could win on the day if they just play their cards, right. So yeah, I, I've come to really like that component of racing. I think I actually liked it less when I was a junior. And probably the reason for that is because I come from mountain bike racing and mountain bike racing, at least in cross country, mountain bike racing can be less tactical, it's more of, you know, just just whatever solo effort you can do. You're not riding solo, you're riding with other people. But there's, you know, there's not as much drafting involved. So a lot of times, it feels like you're doing a time trial out there. And I did a little bit of road racing as a junior and I think my biggest frustration was that I felt like I was the strongest one in the group. I probably wasn't right. This is probably me being a cocky teenager that I thought that but I felt like I was the strongest rider in the group, and then it would be a sprint finish. And I'd get like 20th place, right. And that I that pissed me off quite a bit. So but I've come I've come to like that component of cycling, and gravel cycling, which I do now. It can be quite tactical like that. And I enjoy that.
Andrew Vontz 34:52
How has that changed in the last couple of years the tactical aspect of gravel cycling.
Dylan Johnson 34:57
Yeah, I mean, I think that so gravel cycling in the US. And I think all over the world just just keeps getting more and more and more competitive every single year. Fast riders from both road and mountain bike are coming into gravel. And every single year the competition is higher. And when the competition gets higher, the races get more tactical, because all the writers are closer in ability level. So, you know, for example, unbound. You know, the way unbound was 110 years ago is that, you know, is just kind of survival, right? Whoever survived to the finish, without getting a cramp, or a flat tire, or, you know, suffering in the heat too much, was probably going to win, because they just survived better than everyone else. And they were going to cross the line solo, and the next rider was probably going to be 15 minutes back. Now, last year, the race was a four man sprint finish for the win. That's how close it is. And those riders who won, it's not survival for them. They are racing tactically the entire time. So it's quite a bit different.
Andrew Vontz 36:14
Yeah, and I mean, I think my listeners are probably tired of hearing me talk about this at this point. But I got second place in the unbound 100. Back to back years. Unfortunately, I never won. But if I were to do that race today, I'd be racing. Peter Seagal, Daniel is, you know, Steven Steven Hyde, Ashton Lambie, like people who are world champions, world record holders, and who've raced in the world tour world champions, in fact. So yeah, the the level is certainly gone up. And I'm curious how you think about when you were, when you're in the midst of a race, even if you know, the course you're prepared, you've done all of your training. I mean, we just saw this in the age best only age this weekend, where, you know, the ground is undefeated in the history of professional cycling we saw today Picacho are taken out, it sounds like buy a pothole, broke his wrist while he was in the best shape he's ever been in one of the best cyclists who's ever lived. And when you're out there doing these mix surface rides, particularly if you're in a group, you don't really see what's coming. And the probability that you might just ride into something that could lead to a bad outcome is pretty high. So how do you approach risk management, particularly when you're in a group context at high speed on roads, where you have no idea where you're going to write into?
Dylan Johnson 37:38
Yeah, yeah, this definitely comes into play and gravel, I mean, a lot of these riot roads we ride on are quite rough and have a lot of potholes or, you know, and, and we're riding so fast, and we're in such a tight bunch that you you can't see what's coming up. So you end up just smashing into stuff a lot. I think that's why, you know, the pros will get so many flats at unbound. And I hear a lot of people saying like, Oh, I've done Unbound, you know, five times I've never had a flat, it's, it's quite a bit different when you're, when you're in that front pack, and you're going as fast as you're going, and you can't see anything that you're hitting. And, and so, you know, part of the risk management is not crashing, but it's also not flatting. And so, you know, while being right on the next riders wheel, like inches away from their wheel might save you the most error aerodynamically. From a risk management perspective, that may not be the best spot to be in, you may want to be maybe two or three feet back so that you can at least have some sort of anticipation for what you're about to hit. And it all depends, you know, you do these calculations in your head while you're out there. You know, are you on a very smooth section? Okay, maybe I can get a little closer, you are on a very rough section. Okay, I really need to give my you know, give myself some space here so I can see what's going on. And then and then you know, there is a skill component to bike racing as well. And gravel racing, especially. You know, you kind of have to assess, you know, on a downhill for example. Okay, am I going Am I Am I within my skill range right now? Am I gonna get a flat because I'm going too fast. All of that stuff is going through your head, mid race.
Andrew Vontz 39:37
And could you talk a little bit about the strategic approach that you took at unbound last year? What did you learn from it and how are you going to approach the event this year?
Dylan Johnson 39:48
Yeah. So I had a whole video on the on the approach that I did it Unbound, which is not what most pros do. Most, most pro was when they line it up, line up at Unbound, they do the typical road racer approach where they're just going to stay with the front pack for as long as they can, until they can't hold on anymore. And then they kind of just drag themselves to the finish line unless they're going to win the race. And then they, you know, they sprint it out. Or maybe they go solo. But I, you know, that's not the optimal way to pace a race. In theory, the optimal way to pace that event would be to have even pacing, where you put out the same power output in the first 100 miles that you do in the second 100 miles, which is a lot easier said than done, I would say 99% of people who do unbound do higher power output in the first half than they do in the second half. It's just kind of the reality of the race. So what I've decided to do is just ignore what the front group was doing, and kind of ride at my own pace. And if they were ended, and I was gonna ride at a pace that I knew was sustainable for that duration. And I wasn't going to spike my power on climbs and all of this, I was just going to ride at a steady pace, kind of as if it was a time trial. Of course, it's not a time trial. And I know a lot of listeners out there are going to be like, Well, what about drafting like, you can't draft off of people. If you do that. I did recruit five writers to do this with me. So I had those five writers to work with. And then people have so many issues that unbound that you're constantly catching fast riders who just had an issue. So we caught Brennan words who got a flat we caught Jasper aka lon who got a flat and the group actually ended up being quite strong that we were working with. And and so I thought that it worked really well in my my power profile. If you look at that race, it doesn't look like a typical road race or even a typical gravel race. For that matter. It looks much more like a time trial type effort. And I think that in the end, it probably helped me finish a little bit higher place than I otherwise would have. Because while I was on the backfoot, at the beginning of the race, I entered the second half of the race with a you know, a lot more energy in my legs than I otherwise would have. And I managed to go just under 10 hours. I think my time was nine hours and 58 minutes, which was the fastest ever time it unbound. Like that would have beat the course record until this year this year that got me 25th place. Again, it just it just it just goes to show you how crazy the competition has gotten there. But on to the second part of your question, am I going to do that again this year, or have I changed my tactics. So there have been some rule changes to unbound that is going to make that tactic not as effective. The first rule change being that the pros are going to start separately from the amateurs. And the reason why that matters is because if I let myself get dropped from the pro field, even if I recruit some writers to do it with me, if I get dropped from the pro field, I'm getting dropped into no man's land, instead of getting dropped into, you know, a bunch of amateurs, that could be somewhat helpful to my cause, at least for a little bit. So, you know, there's that. And then there's also they've banned arrow bars. And the arrow bars are quite helpful for that strategy as well, because you're probably going to be spending more time in the wind as opposed to time in the group. So I think I'm going to abandon that strategy this year and probably go back to, you know, trying to trying to stick with the group. I'm not going to stick with the group until I absolutely blow up and then drag myself to the finish line, but I'll I'll pace myself accordingly with the group this year.
Andrew Vontz 44:01
What is your favorite event in the lifetime series?
Dylan Johnson 44:04
Probably unbound. I would say I like there's so much hype around unbound. And I like that it's a very long race. I think I do better and better relative to my competition, the longer the race gets. And then I think there are just so many components of unbound to think about and it's, it's fun to kind of try to optimize around it. I mean, you can do that for any race, but I particularly unbound seems to, you know, so many so many questions about tire choice about bike choice about hydration strategy. There's just there's just a lot of a lot of areas to geek out on
Andrew Vontz 44:49
the outside of the racing itself in the effort that athletes are putting out. There's been a massive evolution in what's happening at checkpoints. It almost looks like a Formula One pitstop Now I see somebody pull into a pit, it's pretty wild. Do you see other areas where further optimization can happen? Or we're going to see giant leaps that might make these times even faster?
Dylan Johnson 45:14
Yeah, no, I definitely think so. Um, so yeah. You know, the spirit of gravel conversation is part of that conversation was like, oh, yeah, you know, let's, let's wait for everybody to get their water at these, these pitstops. And now it's just like in and out as fast as you can possibly go. f1 is a good, good reference there for how what it kind of looks like at these gravel races. Now, some people are upset about that some people aren't. But I think that I think that probably tires could come a long way. In making the race even faster than it already is. And I think that the industry as a whole has tired gravel tire size wrong right now. And all you have to do is look at how road tires have evolved and how mountain bike tires have evolved. road tires have gotten wider and wider and wider. You know, 15 years ago, everybody was on 20 to 23 millimetres and now now the pro peloton is on 20 eighths, at quite a lot quite a lower pressure. You know, it used to be 140 psi, now we're down to 70 psi. And that's not because it's more comfortable. They don't care about comfort, it's because it's faster, it's lower rolling resistance. Same thing with mountain bike used to be on one point nines, two point O's. Now a lot of race XC racers are doing, you know, 2.4 tires, I think gravel is going to have the same evolution, I think gravel tires are going to get wider and wider and wider. And that is going to lower the rolling resistance of of the tire when it's on gravel, and it's going to create faster times.
Andrew Vontz 46:59
I finally use the Silca tire pressure calculator for an event I did 10 days ago, it blew my mind. It was so so much better than what I've been running. I think I dropped seven psi, front rear and it made a massive difference. But so what do you think? Where do you think we're gonna max out? Yeah, or tire size wise?
Dylan Johnson 47:22
That's a good question. So I don't know. I don't know what the optimal tire size is. To be honest with you, I'm kind of I'm actually working with silica to try to figure that out. We've got some wind tunnel data, because obviously, the wider the tire tire gets, the less aerodynamic it is, but I think that the wider the tire gets, the lower the rolling resistance is on gravel. And that shocks people when I tell them because every so many people just assume narrower as fast or narrower as faster. It's not hard to do this test that he ride a section of gravel at a certain power output switch the tires ride the section at the same power output. And you'll be shocked at how much faster you go when you have wider tires. I don't know where we're going to max out at I'm currently at 47 millimeter tires as my go to which is quite a bit wider than what most people run and and you know, most people when they're thinking about gravel tire, they're thinking about 38 to 40 millimeters or maybe 42 millimeters but 47 seems out of the question right now. You know, give it five years give it 10 years 47 is going to be the standard, then maybe 50 is going to be the standard. I don't quite know where it's going to max out at but I know that right now. It's too narrow.
Andrew Vontz 48:39
And Dylan what's what has been your experience with the BW our events?
Dylan Johnson 48:44
Yeah, the BW, our events are interesting. I the reason why they're interesting is because they love to. I think that the BW or California race. I've heard too, it referred, it's been referred to as the under bike world championships under bike meaning you don't have enough bike for whatever you're riding. So like you're riding a road bike on dirt, or you're riding a gravel bike on trail, that sort of thing. And they love to create courses that promote under biking, they'll throw in, you know, 70% Road or 60% road or something like this. And in the same race that has so much pavement, they'll throw in really chunky gravel or straight up mountain bike trail. So there's it almost feels like for the entire race. You never have the right bike either you have either you're on a road with a gravel bike, or you're on a trail with a gravel bike, and you're never like, oh yeah, this is the perfect bike for what I'm writing right now. And I think that's I think that's pretty interesting. It gets a lot of people worked up about equipment for those races, particularly tires. Because, you know, it's like, do you go with a more roadie tire for The road sections or do you go with a more aggressive tire for the off road sections? It's it's, it's a very interesting style of racing that they've created. And it's contrast to Unbound, for example, because unbound is just, it's, it's 200 miles. And I think 195 of those miles is is gravel. And it's not a huge variety of different terrain. I mean, yes, the gravel can be more chunky or less chunky. But the whole thing is gravel, right? You don't have to think about single track or road for, for the most part.
Andrew Vontz 50:33
The race formats have driven so much innovation and equipment. And it also has made for really compelling I would say viewing but it's not really possible to view these races. But it's been really interesting to follow them primarily through social media from writers like yourself, and there are a handful of Instagram handles like onroad, I'm trying to get the onroad people on I want to talk to them about what they're doing, which has been really compelling. And then of course, there's the lifetime series. What would you like to see attempted from a race format point of view that perhaps we've not seen yet, that might be even more interesting?
Dylan Johnson 51:12
If anything? It's a good question. I don't think I've gotten that question. Be more interesting. I mean, we have it, it seems like an if, if you're in the US, you can find a race that will suit almost every need to be honest with you. I mean, there's races like BW er that are a little mix of everything. There's races like Unbound, which are very long and all gravel. There's races like Crusher in the toucher, which are straight up climbing race on gravel. I might have to come back to you on that one. Give it some thought.
Andrew Vontz 52:01
Okay, and follow up to that. What about in terms of linked? Do you think it's important that these races remain? Loops versus circuits? And I know at the UCI level, I believe that some of the gravel races are now actually circuit races. Do you think that that adds to or potentially diminishes the appeal of these types of events?
Dylan Johnson 52:22
Yeah, I mean, I guess I guess it's all dependent on whether you're trying to stick with the tradition of what gravel has been. Because if you're trying to do that, you would just all the gravel races would be one loop, one massive loop and they would be long. I don't really like how the UCI is doing laps or circuits or laps or whatever you want to call them. And I also don't like how a lot of these UCI gravel races are really short. relative to what gravel racing has been in the US. I mean, most gravel races or 100, most major gravel races in the US are at least 100 miles, if not 120 150 200 miles, they're long distance events and the UCI has a lot of these, I don't know 100k races, in my mind. 100k race is not a gravel race. But you know, the sport is constantly evolving. So
Andrew Vontz 53:19
from your point of view, having been at all the major races, and granted, you're at the pointy end of the race, but something that I've observed is there don't seem to be a lot of young people coming out to do gravel events. And that might just be the same sample size that I've been exposed to. I'm doing raspy Teesta. This weekend, I'm curious to see what's going on there. But where I live, for example, we have a very active, thriving High School Mountain Bike Program. And none of those kids are out of gravel events at all. They're also not road riding.
Dylan Johnson 53:55
Yeah, that's a great point. I there's something about mountain biking that I think appeals to younger people more particularly people in high school. Maybe it's the technical component of it. And maybe it's the fact that it's a little bit safer than road riding. That may not be intuitive to people who aren't cyclists. But you know, if you're riding on the road, you know, there's always the risk of getting hit by a car which, but if you're on the trail, you know, the only risk is the risk that you're imposing to yourself by riding too fast on a trail when you shouldn't be. And so, yeah, for whatever reason, i It seems that young cyclists tend to gravitate particularly towards mountain bike racing. And then maybe as they get older, they start coming over to gravel. I don't know. That's an excellent point, though. It does seem like it's a little bit of an older population at these gravel races.
Andrew Vontz 54:58
Lotta headsweats with the tails on them, you know what I'm saying? Do I do? Yeah. Okay. So you're on the road a lot for your job. And a key part of your job is to show up rested, to show up peaked, to show up with your equipment intact. You of course have helped with the equipment, I would think through jukebox the program that you you're racing with. But how do you manage the stress of travel? And all of the germ exposure? I mean, I know there's some real basic things here. But I don't think people think about this a lot. Is it relates to athletes like yourself? And it amazes me when I think about it, maybe it's because I'm traveling with two small children. But typically, if I'm going somewhere, I have, like nine different bags, a bike case, kids car seats, what's it like for you? And how do you manage what has to be a stressful experience getting to and from these events?
Dylan Johnson 56:00
Yeah. Yeah, it can, it can be stressful traveling to a race. I mean, the, for example, I just flew back from sea otter, and we had to leave at three in the morning to get to the airport on time. And I had just raced the previous day and gotten three hours of sleep, which I was very tired on, on both flights that I had that day, but you know, you got to do what you got to do. Yeah, it can be stressful. And I think the other thing is that it can be, you know, you bring up the germ exposure, it can be taxing on your immune system, running off limited sleep, and putting your body through a lot of stress with racing, putting your body through a lot of stress with, with travel. So it's definitely something to definitely something to keep in mind, as you're traveling. Personally, I I actually like to just drive to races, if that's feasible, I'll drive. Probably my limit is maybe I would say 16 or 17 hours. And, you know, like, like you a lot of people when they hear that they're like, man, that's crazy. That's a lot of hours of driving, you know, you could just fly. Part of the reason for that is potentially the germ exposure in an in an airport in a plane. But I would say that the main reason for that is because there's so much gear to bring to a bike race and building your bike up and breaking it down. When you've got your whole car with you or your whole van with you, you've got all your you know, you've got all your gear, you've got all your tools, it's all you know, your bikes are fully built up, you can bring multiple bikes to a race, if you're trying to figure out which bike you want to race, you know, you can bring more than one bike. So I really don't mind a long car drive. And I actually do that a lot. I try to do that more than I fly.
Andrew Vontz 57:57
In fact, you can store the spirit of gravel in your vehicle. Exactly right. So you can bring it with you. And when do you have a night like you just mentioned, we're three hours asleep, you're getting up, you have to get to the airport, multiple flights, you get home, probably have to rebuild your bike. I don't know if you're training on your gravel bike, that's your race bike or not. But there's a lot happening. Do you have a protocol to reset and recover for a day like that? Do you take a beat? And
Dylan Johnson 58:24
yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, I definitely dial it back after after a race. I mean, part of the reason is just when you race that hard, you do need some time to recover. And I think the travel just adds to that it adds another day of recovery at least. So you know, if the race was in my backyard, and I could drive 10 minutes down the road and race my bike, I would probably the recovery time would probably be a day quicker for me getting back to my normal training routine than it is when I have to do what I just described. You were after wake, wake up so early and catch two flights and all of that.
Andrew Vontz 59:04
What do you want to do outside of cycling in YouTube?
Dylan Johnson 59:09
That's a great question. This is what I'm so consumed with right now. Pretty much every you know, the my career is i i make I've got different avenues for making money. Part of it is YouTube. Part of it is my coaching. Part of it is my pro racing. But all of those kind of feed each other in are all cycling related. And it's a little bit hard for me to imagine my life without any of that right now. And it's so I'm so busy keeping up with all three of those that I don't have a lot of time to pursue other aspects. I think that might be a question that you have to come back and ask me in five years or 10 years, maybe when I'm ready to retire from trying to ride fast.
Andrew Vontz 59:58
I think part Have why I was curious what the answer to that might be as the you mentioned that you can get really obsessive about hobbies. And I'm just wondering, is there anything outside of cycling? We don't know about? Perhaps you want to join the Blue Man Group? Like, I don't know.
Dylan Johnson 1:00:13
Yeah, I mean, so. Cycling is definitely what I'm obsessed with right now. But again, come back to me in 10 years, maybe I'll be obsessed with gardening or something. I don't know. I can't wait. But i i so i have this conversation sometimes with with fellow racers about, you know, when you're, when you're no longer fast enough to race in the pro field, you know, you're getting to your late 30s. Maybe you're getting into your 40s. whenever, whenever your time is to retire from pro racing. Are you going to do the Masters racing thing? Are you just going to say, that was enough bike racing for my life? I'll do something else. Now. I don't know what I will say when I get to that age, because I'm probably 10 years away from that age right now, hopefully. But I imagined that I will not do masters racing, I'll probably do something else. And I don't know what that something else will be. But whatever it is, I'll probably be obsessed with it and put all my effort into it.
Andrew Vontz 1:01:18
You heard it here first. Dylan is going to come back to discuss gardening in a decade on this podcast and also he's proclaimed that he will not be the Alejandro Valverde of Brevard, North Carolina. Well, Dylan, thanks so much for joining me today. It was awesome to talk to you. And I really enjoy watching what you're doing as a professional cyclist and what you're doing with content. Thank you.
Dylan Johnson 1:01:40
Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.