Michael Marckx - Belgian Waffle Ride Founder
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Michael Marckx is the founder and CEO of the Belgian Waffle Ride, one of the biggest and most influential multi-surface, gravelish series in the world. He’s a prime mover behind what has become today’s booming gravel scene and wow, this guy has lived what would be 20 lives for the average human.
We talk everything that went into the birth of the BWR including Michael’s time as CEO of a publicly traded company, his other career as a professional musician, his other other career as a professional triathlete during the golden age of the sport when Kenny Souza had unrivaled hair and Mark Allen and Dave Scott were battling it out for the Ironman and Michael’s childhood in an environment where running marathons when you were 12 was normal.
Image credit: Steve Driscoll
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Most importantly, we talk about why you should pick something hard to do with friends and go do it. That’s what I did last fall when I did the BWR Kansas Wafer with the No Pressure No Diamonds crew and got a taste of the Belgian Waffle magic then swore I would never go back and am now going back.
Choose the Hard Way is a podcast about how doing hard things is fun. Please help more people find this podcast. To do that, just hit subscribe and rate the show five stars on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this episode with someone you care about.
We are in year six of Choose the Hard Way and it’s going to be a big one with some amazing guests and the chance for us to spend some time together as a community at a few gatherings and live events.
To make it all happen I’m open to mission-aligned sponsors I’d be proud to share with my audience directly supporting the show this season. If you or someone you know have a company that wants to reach the high-achieving, high-influence, highly networked people who listen to this show and do amazing things, then send a DM to @hardwaypod or email us at choosethehardway@gmail.com.
I’m also ready to retire the Giant TCX cyclocross bike I’ve been using to race gravel since 2015 and I’m ready for a new ride. If you’re in the industry and work for a company that makes an amazing bike you’d like me to race and talk about this year, holler at me and let’s make it happen.
Finally, I’m going to have big news to share some time in the next few episodes about the business I started that I’ve quietly been working on for the past 18 months. We are getting ready to publicly release our product and I want to give you all the opportunity to be among the first to get to try it.
Go to choosethehardway.com to sign up for the newsletter and if there’s someone you think would make a great guest, DM @hardwaypod.
Choose The Hard Way is a Big Truck Production. Anthony Palmer at Palm Tree Pod Co is the producer and editor and Emily Miles is head of digital and marketing. Jeffrey Nebolini is the world-renowned designer behind our brand identity and the Choose the Hard Way logo. The content for this show is created by @vontz.
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Andrew Vontz 0:00
time we can just kind of keep wrapping for a minute. So what? What have you been up to today? What's going on?
Michael Marckx 0:05
Oh, it's it's early today. So yeah, I
Andrew Vontz 0:08
guess you're right. I forget I'm just in a time warp. And in rural Maine in this office, I've never know what's going on.
Michael Marckx 0:16
Our kids flew back from New York last night, so they got in late. So there wasn't a lot of sleep going on here. I woke up and just kind of cleared out the inbox and the emails to get ready for our little chit chat.
Andrew Vontz 0:30
Yeah. Nice. At this point, I guess we're what? Two months out from BWR. Kansas. So you probably have you kind of into your your offseason, I guess? Well, we have no you had Mexico, right? Yeah. Yeah. Man that looked awesome.
Michael Marckx 0:48
That Mexico was amazing. And what was most amazing about it was that that is where this spirit of gravel has gone to live. Because it's like this brand new thing. And everyone's excited about it. And everyone is taking care of everyone. People take a wrong turn. And they come in and they're not angry. You know, they're now it's just time to party. And it was also the largest gravel race in Mexican history, which was kind of cool. Personally, I flew back on the night of the race with a fever. And that was three and a half weeks ago, and I've been sick this entire time with one flu or another. It's been a challenging month. Awesome.
Andrew Vontz 1:33
What a great chance to just get to know yourself a little bit better on this this voyage of illness. Yeah, no, I'm sorry to hear that. I mean, that also is what typically happens, right? We kind of get to the end of whatever the thing is, you have a an operational pause. And that's when your body reminds you that everything that you've done to it for the period of time prior to that new pay the price.
Michael Marckx 1:58
Yeah, the worst part about that is, let's say you train for a huge race, and everything's going great. And then you put yourself right on the line. And then you start to taper and then a few days before the race, that's when you get sick. That's happened to me a lot.
Andrew Vontz 2:17
Has it ever happened at a really inopportune time?
Michael Marckx 2:20
Yeah, pretty much some of the most important races in my life. What
Andrew Vontz 2:25
do you think was the most important race of your life?
Michael Marckx 2:31
I won the Ironman qualifier here as a pro in California. That was a big race. But like, literally, I finished that race. I went into that race, having been sick for three weeks. Didn't think I should do it. But they paid my entry my hotel. So I went to go do it came out of the water in about seven. I was like, Oh, I thought I'd quit after the water. Then I came off the bike around seven. And I was like, well, I'll just do the run. And I ran down the guy who was leading you could see the lead vehicles right around the entourage of the leader. And I caught the guy and I knew him. And I said to him, you blew it. He goes, what? I go, Yeah, you blew it. I'm a miler. There's no way you can beat me. And then outsprinted him. And then I never raced a triathlon since I got so sick with chronic fatigue, I didn't get to go and do the Hawaiian Ironman. I spent the next few years with battling with chronic fatigue that was that has plagued me off and on ever since. And that's one of those cases where you train and train and train too much. And you put yourself over the limit, and then you go and do one big race and that's it. Your body just says screw it. We're done. And that's what happened to me. That
Andrew Vontz 3:56
was kind of the mentality at that time in triathlon. I have to imagine some of your heroes must have been, you know, just the legends of the sport with them, right.
Michael Marckx 4:09
I trained with Mark Allen, Scott Tinley, right, Kenny, Kenny Souza, those guys all live down here. We'd raise those other guys, but we all week in week out, trained and hurt each other.
Andrew Vontz 4:22
It was just mega mega volume, like, yeah, what kind of what kind of hours were you putting in at that time?
Michael Marckx 4:27
I swam six days a week. I rode between three and 500 a week. And I because running was sort of my forte, I'd only run three or four times a week. But that's like too much as it is and then trying to work. I tried to do all of that. And I was playing music. So I was playing music at night. And then sometimes I go straight to the race having not gone to sleep, do the race and then sleep a lot of times. I would you know Go to the pool to swim the 6am workout straight from the gig. And that sort of duality living that kind of challenged, life challenged in terms of sleep, eventually ruin me. But I ended up doing a TED talk about that specific dynamic of trying to balance being too thick being good at two things that that are not, you know, mutually reinforcing. When
Andrew Vontz 5:26
you were a musician, maybe you cover this in your TED talk, but when you were a musician, where you live in pretty clean, or would you have a couple of beverages? How did that go for you?
Michael Marckx 5:39
You know, our family, we have a Belgian Heritage, which was, you know, inspired the BW ours, but I was allowed to drink beer at a young age. Like I can have beer with dinner at 13. Maybe it's some wine, but I preferred beer. And while I never had an unhealthy relationship with it, gigging, easily if you're playing two sets in a night, you're you're going to drink a pitcher to a beer every night. And, you know, that weighs on you too, in a number of ways.
Andrew Vontz 6:13
Now, going back to kind of your peers that you were training with at the time, I'm old enough to remember the legendary Triathlete Magazine cover with Kenny Souza, who I believe probably had the best hair in the history of the sport, and I know he was more of a do athlete. Was it hard for you to be around her that was at that level?
Michael Marckx 6:35
No, it wasn't because my hair game challenged Kenny's. Okay. I had a nose ring. So I was beating him and the Rock and Roll sort of thing. But my hair was at least his length, and had a bit of a wave to it. Slightly sexier than Kenny's, but Kenny had a faster 10,000 meter time than I did, because Kenny could uncork. He could go 2845 for 10,000. So he beat me by a minute. Plus, Kenny
Andrew Vontz 7:08
had some pretty strong highlights if I remember correctly. Were you in that game? No,
Michael Marckx 7:13
no highlights, all natural. Okay.
Andrew Vontz 7:17
All right. So you get out of the Get out of the triathlon game, I think you know, something that people who go to your events, I think a lot of them at some point in the event question, like, what's wrong with this guy? Why did he do this to me? Why am I here? For you? How did it all get started? How did we end up in this place where we all want to go to your events now?
Michael Marckx 7:42
Well, I suppose we have to go back a long way. As a child, I was the oldest of four, my dad was the oldest of six. I had asthma. So my dad's like, no son of mine is gonna have asthma. So his his remedy was start running the build up my lungs, and they come stronger. Fortunately, we also went to the doctor who prescribed medicine, medicine back then kind of screwed you up was was lame. But my dad got me running. So I started running, I could usually make it about a half a mile before the asthma kicked in. But over time with the medicine and some dedication, I could run, and I would get better. And as with all things in life, as we start to get better, whether it's playing the guitar, running, riding a bike, it's inspiring to us. We want more of that more than this. And I found it interesting. And so in the seventh grade, when I was 12, I ran my first marathon. And which isn't saying much because my brothers ended up doing it when they were eight, nine years old. My sister did it when she was 14. And several other times my parents did it. So there was this natural thing in our house to go and do crazy shit. That same year when I was 12, I did my first road race on a bicycle. And I think the thing that sticks out in my mind that took many years to germinate as a seed of inspiration was one time I was late to get to school and I took my road bike in the dirt because there was a shortcut. And I went down these oops, than across this field past the big bullies in the eighth grade and made it and one of them yelled, You can't ride that bike in the dirt. And I said I just did. And that became snap. It was something that stuck with me then later in life. I use my running skills and love of cycling to do cyclocross and became a at a UC I procard to race cross, I loved it. But I thought, hmm, I really like long distance races. I have this Belgian Heritage. I love belgian waffles, I love Belgian ale even more. Why not combine all those things into one festive weekend or at least one day of racing. So it's like a 678 12 hour cyclocross race. That's bracketed by Belgian waffles and Belgian ale. And then over the years, it's been 13 years. Bikes have advanced tires have advanced, so I've been able to make with my partners in crime, we've been able to make the courses more and more challenging, more and more dynamic. And, you know, I think at one point, we reached a threshold where it's like 146 miles and you know, 15,000 feet of climbing or something that was ridiculous. And we've, we've backed it off a little bit to find kind of the sweet spot right around 130 miles of unrolled insanity.
Andrew Vontz 11:05
Maybe that's your sweet spot. I think mines mines more in that wafer range at this, this point in my athletic trajectory is
Michael Marckx 11:15
fine. That's a four hour plus race that mimics all the pain and suffering of the waffle. Yeah.
Andrew Vontz 11:22
What were you expecting to have happen when you had the first event? What expectations did you bring into it?
Michael Marckx 11:32
Well, there were, I invited 136 People of note, who I thought would enjoy the experience. I created a course, and a dynamic that I wanted to expose the guys that do the group rides that never do any work. And then all of a sudden, they're there for the sprint. You know, that annoying guy. There were quite a few of them in San Diego. And I thought, Let's make something that exposes them. So we did that. And basically, at the end of it, 118 of them finished. And I just asked them to say, hey, look, we're going to do this again next year, it'll be harder. But tell people, let them know you had a good time. And we'll grow this thing together. And so this community built up from there. And it the next year, we'll have twice as many people in the next year or twice as many people and it kind of grew by word of mouth. There's been really no marketing. We the marketing I do now is email and social media. And occasionally, somebody does a banner ad or something for us, but really has been word of mouth that started from that initial race 13 years ago. Was
Andrew Vontz 12:47
it commercialized at the outset? Did you have relationship with sponsors? Or was it just like truly an organic thing where you got some pals together and gave it a shot,
Michael Marckx 12:58
I was actually the president and CEO of Spy Optic. And I created the event as a marketing exercise that was to be replicated in all the different silos. So we do Moto and snowboarding. And so each one of those silos would have its own unique sort of Belgian waffle ride esque thing. So that was really sponsored by spy, but pretty. Within the next year, there were other brands that wanted to be a part of it. And again, like the growth of it was, hey, we'd answered the fax machine, and somebody was interested in partnering with us. And along they came
Andrew Vontz 13:40
when you put something into motion like that, and give it a shot for the first time. And that's, of course not the first time anybody had ever put a bike race together. It was the first time someone had put that specific type of bike race together, though. So when you actually had it, what did you learn from it and what was not expected that happened?
Michael Marckx 14:10
I learned something every time. So that that one I learned the most. The thing that was fascinating to me is the fact that people would cheat. Even in a small group of 136, there were people that literally just cut the course, and then claimed that they finished and then that became something that happened every year. And that part, you know, I really didn't enjoy, because then you have to start like putting timing mats out. And the first few years I would personally check everyone's Strava to make sure they did the whole course. And that was kind of lame to like even having to second guess somebody's like dude, show me your Strava so that that part's weird to me that people would you know I intentionally cut the course. The other thing is, excuse me. You for such a long race, you really got to have like the police there, you got to have traffic control, you got to have safety measures in play. And every year, we spend more and more money to provide that, you know, not only police escorts but traffic control at, at most every intersection. And just tons and tons of volunteers are needed to make sure they don't turn right here. Or another thing that's fascinating to me is we mark the course and then people move the signs or take the signs. So we ended up marking the course several times at every venue doesn't matter where we are, people move the signs. So what we do in the morning of the race is we send out in advance guys on motos, to do the course to make sure all the arrows are there. They're there in advance of the race enough to like move the signs, but sometimes it's within seconds of the leaders getting there, then they jump back on their motorcycle and go down to the next intersection. That that stuff kind of intrigued me too. And then there was like, local people that would intentionally screw with the riders and move the signs like that. Were somehow didn't like the race being there. That part, you know, it's irritating.
Andrew Vontz 16:33
Yeah, it's definitely irritating. And it's kind of axiomatic. And it seems to happen. It pretty much every event that's in this kind of unloader gravel category happens a lot. Unfortunately, for the, you know, for the participants of that initial event, which sent you know, it was kind of the best kind of experiment, getting motivated people together that are competitive that you're friends with and seeing what happens and like you mentioned, some of that was unexpected, like people cutting the course, equally. Did you have a sense of the type of experience that you hoped people would have and how it might be different from you know, like you mentioned, triathlon, for example, or cyclocross, which can be a lot of fun. What kind of experience did you want people to have with this type of event though?
Michael Marckx 17:33
Yeah, I wanted it to be more familial in the sense that there's a pageantry to it. So in the morning, I wanted everyone to break bread, or in this case, waffles together. I wanted that to be a part of it. Not just a show up for the race, maybe you'll have a waffle or not, no, sit down, meet some new people have a waffle. Listen to the pre race musings. And then go do the race and be out there for six 710 12 hours. Then when you come back, break some more bread, tell stories, drink some Belgian Ale, and commiserate or otherwise celebrate with everyone that made it back to the finish line. So for me, it's this long, protracted fun party that has breaking of the bread at the beginning in the end. So it's the celebrant celebratory day, that people of all stripes and all abilities. Enjoy. So you could sit down with Pete stat and have a waffle or name your favorite gravel racer. And that thing that to me is very special.
Andrew Vontz 18:49
Well, this has been going on for the past 13 years, what's been going on with you and your personal relationship with endurance sports.
Michael Marckx 19:02
up when I left spy like seven years ago, or maybe more, I just started consulting with different brands. Because I have a history in action sports. I did end up working with a variety of brands so I did work with 100% But then I also helped Billabong and Quicksilver merge into one company. I ran a division of for Adidas ran their global watch division and worked on myriad projects. But all the while nurturing the Belgian waffle ride still doing racing of my own I can no longer run so all I've been doing the last you know 20 years is race my bike. But I That's That's it. I can't do triathlons anymore. So everything for me endurance related is getting on a bike in going to try and find new unrolls to share with other people. That's what it's been about.
Andrew Vontz 20:07
What do you get out of doing that?
Michael Marckx 20:11
Well, for me one, there's the adventure of the hunt. You know, I'll I'll scour the map and like, what about this one, and then I'll go there and find it. And it's magnificent, except it's got a big yellow gate in front of it. Or, you know, you go out and find something else, and it's private property. But sometimes you go there, you find that it's magnificent that it's private property. And in the past, I've like, gone to the property owner and said, Can we please go through your property? And many times, they've said, Yes. Which has been great. So for me, it's the adventure of discovery. So that I can come back and share that with somebody else. And we're still doing that to this day. Yeah,
Andrew Vontz 20:54
hearing you describe it. I hadn't actually thought about it this way. And till this moment, great courses, I think are, they're like great tracks. Because, you know, like, there's the break or the drop, it's unexpected, it does something to you, or makes you feel something that you didn't anticipate was going to happen. And then there's perhaps like, some calm or a sense of renewal in between those moments. And I don't know if you've have you ever thought about it that way. And like the musicality of what you're building and sequencing?
Michael Marckx 21:34
Yeah, I often. Because I've made a lot of films over the years. Excuse me. So many times, I'm thinking about what song would go with this particular part of the race, or this particular part of the scenery. And then a lot of times you come back and you're looking at all the B roll, and all the stuff that's gonna go into making a film. And then you start to think about, Oh, if only we could get access to that David Bowie track, or, you know, like, getting access to music that's been in the cultural zeitgeist that's been inside of our brains, that makes us feel a certain way. Like, adding that to the scenery, or the at least the documentation of it is a dream. But more times than not, like, literally on some of the films we've made. I've just used my own music inside the film, because it didn't cost anything or, you know, you have to, you'd have to sign publishing deals or off the shelf music that you pay a minimum for. I'm not sure that that was your question, but that's my answer. No,
Andrew Vontz 22:44
I mean, I think that's a really that's a really interesting consideration as well as what music might go with the visual experience of what's happening. I think the way I'm thinking about it, which may not actually make any sense, is, uh, you know, you have these, like, I'm thinking about BW or Kansas, where you have moments where it's rolling terrain, its hills, its wind, you have directional changes in wind, is which, you know, that might be a verse, then there's like, a chorus, and then there's an unexpected break, were like, oh, man, now we're going into single track. I didn't think that that's where this track was going to take us. And it makes it it makes you feel something like there's like a very visceral, emotional feeling that I personally have in a race and response to the composition of the elements and how their sequence.
Michael Marckx 23:37
Yeah, they're like, sorry, musically. Musically, you can like look at Nirvana and the formula of eight bars and eight bars and like, here's this quiet verse, and here's this loud chorus. And you could see, cycling is often that way. It's like intermittent bike racing is inner intermittent, meaning you're plodding along the packs going until someone attacks and then you have to respond. I'd always hoped that the Belgian waffle rides would be more like a king gizzard and the lizard wizard track that goes on for 40 minutes. And it goes all over the place and, and shifts time signatures. Yeah, and goes from reggae to speed metal into something totally melodic or even classical. Like, that's how I look at the Belgian waffle rides.
Andrew Vontz 24:31
Yeah, I haven't experienced a lot of Belgian waffle rides, but with what I have experienced, that's exactly the experience that I had. Sometimes another element gets layered on you're like, oh, wow, like that's, that's happening right now. And it is you have to be present to it. You have to live through it. And then there's something on the other side of it. When you think about the types of courses that maybe you haven't yet been able to put together, is there anything that you've kind of have a fantasy about or dream about assembling? Or do you feel like you've kind of found the composition of elements that feels pretty spot on.
Michael Marckx 25:15
I always harken back to like a pair a Rube A, where you've got 30, some odd sectors, they each have a name, they each have a difficulty. Like they're there. The the race is punctuated by three dozen sectors. And everything else in between is kind of the, the either the palate cleanser or the frenzy before that. So I go back to like wanting to have something like that. But then each sector each named an sector that has its own difficulty. Could be single track. Could be dismounts could be sand, could be water. So not necessarily cobblestones, but challenges that force people before the race to consider what tire, what bike, what tire pressure, all the things that would make it either for some people more comfortable to finish, or make allow them to more likely finish. Or on the other side, someone that's racing is like, what's the minimal tire I can get through I can use to get through the sand, and the rocks and the single track and enjoy this dynamic of however many sectors. So I would say to answer your question, I look forward to going to new venues that have a avid cycling base there that we can bring something that adds to that community, and then working with those people there to come up with a concoction of unrolled sectors that sort of mimic what I just mentioned, with you know, always using the reference of Perry, rube A as the classic benchmark for asphalt, and then some on road feature, and back to asphalt and some on road feature. That's how I look at it.
Andrew Vontz 27:15
You know, Michael, you're a highly accomplished is a business person, as a musician, as an artist, with what you've done with DWR. At this point, in your trajectory as a human and with your career, what brings you satisfaction and what do you want more of from what you're doing professionally.
Michael Marckx 27:36
You know, I used to dream about World Tour racers coming and we used to joke about the BW or becoming a UCI race at some point, which you know, it could have or maybe it could, it's not really of interest to us anymore. For me personally. The joy I get is from people that tell me about their experience, like, Hey, I signed up for the Belgian waffle ride, and I haven't raised my bike in 30 years. And it literally transformed my body and my mindset. And it's those stories that I want to hear more of, like how the Belgian waffle ride has allowed people to live more meaningful lives. Or it got them out of depression or got them out of some spiral. And the more stories the more people I connect with, the more it makes me want to provide that opportunity for people to reach, grow, aspire to more and less about like the best racers in the world. I think if the best racers in the world are doing it, it inspires others to want to do it. So those two go hand in hand. But I'm most inspired by people like you and I that through the prism of the Belgian waffle ride have enriched their lives.
Andrew Vontz 29:01
This is not Belgian waffle ride related. You had mentioned that you had your UCI pro card for cyclocross, which is a sport that I used to love participating in, and that I still enjoy watching it also, you know, is in very steep decline in the United States. And yeah, it was really interesting watching the national championships, which was a great race. And to see, I think greater than 60% of the athletes in the top five in the men's and women's races. They were on gravel bikes, actually. I thought I was like, wow, this is really interesting. I mean, the guy who won the men's national championship. Yeah, Eric was on a gravel bike, right? Yeah, the pivot bolt, which is a great bike. What do you think is happening? Why is that happened? Why is cyclocross in decline and where do you think that branch of the sport is going?
Michael Marckx 29:59
I don't know it's such a sad thing. But you could also say the same for road racing. Yeah. We here in San Diego used to have tons of road races there. There aren't I mean, there was maybe one now and it's very not well attended. Yeah. Southern California used to have lots of cyclocross races. And then for whatever reason people stopped going, I think, and, you know, the statistics support this is that, yeah, people came in to bike riding. But they no longer wanted to race criteriums or road races. And they gravitated towards doing cycle Craw, or sorry, gravel races. Same thing with cyclocross. The advent of gravel racing, coincided with the decline in cyclocross racing, which those two should go hand in hand. The exciting thing about what's going on now is with Nika and mountain bike racing for kids, all of a sudden, you have this youthful surgence of participants that will eventually become gravel racers. I'm hoping road racers and cyclocross. They're just entering through the prism of mountain biking. But I think the general trend has been away from riding bikes on roads and getting hit by cars more into the gravel where it's more of an adventure and less pressure.
Andrew Vontz 31:32
Yeah, yeah, I think that makes a ton of sense. And I think also at the participant level, I mean, a lot of pro athletes have said this, who raised cyclocross and race gravel, I'm sure you hear it from your athletes all the time, that all the equipment that you need to do cyclocross, which I actually think is kind of a fun part of the sport, you do have to have a lot of resources to be able to do that, which makes it a bit less accessible. But you know, that's a fun component of the sport. It's also really expensive. The racing itself is we know, is, it's just absolutely brutal. And I think it's actually you know, it's it's quite hard on your body, it's probably not a lifetime sport. Unless you're done Mayra or Justin Robinson or some of the other cats that we've seen out in California, who were who are still getting after it. And, you know, I mean, maybe that's part of it, too, is you go to a PWI or get together with your friends. You know, like you said, it's just kind of, it's this holistic experience with the community and yeah, cyclocross has a bit of that vibe, too. There's definitely a good vibe in the parking lot and everything, but it's one hour, and then you kind of got to take your three bikes, and you might have four sets of wheels and get out of there. Yeah,
Michael Marckx 32:55
I do hope that somehow we get back to cyclocross being a popular sport, are more popular in the US. Because, you know, you go to Europe, and it's, it's a party, and they're eating waffles and they're drinking beer, and some people are racing. But 2030 40,000 Other people are just there for the party.
Andrew Vontz 33:19
Yeah, definitely. When you look beyond the kind of the sphere of the BW or ecosystem that you've created, are there other events or races in the United States that either you've participated in or have watched that you're intrigued by.
Michael Marckx 33:39
As a kid, I always enjoyed this thing called the Catalina marathon, which was a trail marathon that went from zero, elevation to 1500. Back to zero to 1500. Back to zero to 1500. really challenging, running on trails, with buffalo chasing you. You started at one end of the island, so you camped out, then you did this whole crazy race and then finished in downtown on Catalina Avalon, sort of this romantic destination and it's a full on adventure for a weekend. I love things like that. I also appreciate some of the races that are considered gravel races too. You know, there's like the Mid South. I think that SPT does a great job. Like there's some other there's a lot of really great race directors putting on quality events that I appreciate. There's also a lot that don't do. They do a lot of gravel races, but they're not very good. I sort of hope that they go away and that that allows the really good ones to serve more people. Yeah, so I'm also always intrigued by I'm triggered by the stuff that Heather Jackson is doing. Like she's, you know, getting after Ultra distance running, which is something I used to do in the past. Things like the Western States 100 that have been around for decades. Those the the, the mythology behind those things, and those races, and the progression of times for all those things that fascinates me.
Andrew Vontz 35:29
Yeah, Heather Jackson is definitely a fascinating athlete and what she's doing with her program now, I find to be pretty intriguing. I don't know how they're, but I'd like to have her on the show and learn more about it.
Michael Marckx 35:41
Oh, it should I can make the introduction. And she's amazing. And tough and able to suffer like no one's business.
Andrew Vontz 35:51
Yeah, that'd be, that'd be awesome. I'd love to have her on the show I've been following. The way she's kind of putting together this interesting menu of events and experiences. And it's it's definitely interesting and different.
Michael Marckx 36:07
Yeah, I'm excited because she's doing the Triple Crown of gravel to which it'll be very interesting to see how the top riders mix it up over three very different courses.
Andrew Vontz 36:18
Yeah, absolutely. So when you're looking ahead to 2024? What kind of feedback have you been getting from athletes, you know, the past couple of years? How's that shaping what you're doing? Or not? And, you know, what are we going to see, that's potentially new or different?
Michael Marckx 36:40
We definitely try to avoid creating any pinch points, because we've had a few pinch points in our race that, you know, affects people. And that's like the number one thing on the course we try to avoid, like, is it going to be safe? Can we make sure that we get enough traffic control and the right things in place to make, make it easy for people to ride through, avoid those, those pinch points. And then, like, where's the fine line between clever and stupid in terms of technically challenging stuff across rocks, or sand or anything that you know, you don't normally encounter in your day to day writing, like basically trying to make courses that you can rip through but still require technical expertise, endurance, got to stop and eat. And you know, the mixture of those things without, without it being too challenging for an average rider to complete. And sometimes our courses get pretty challenging. So this next year, we've really been spending time to hone in on what the most rippable courses are.
Andrew Vontz 37:56
Which of your courses do you think is the most challenging?
Michael Marckx 38:00
I think North Carolina is because of the amount of climbing that's involved. And then, you know, there's some challenging gravel stuff there. San Diego's the most dynamic between all the different terrain that we have, including sand, but lots of single track and, you know, technically challenging things. Those two are probably the most challenging, I think, Kansas was the most rippable just in terms of it's up and down and up and down, and twisting and turning, but like, there's a certain flow to it until you get to one of those challenging single tracks. And you make it through that. And then you get back to the twisting, turning flowy stuff. I really enjoyed the courses we created there.
Andrew Vontz 38:54
Beyond the courses themselves, anyone who's done one of your events gets to experience the I think the world of the the brand and just the brand and the event. It's it's incredibly immersive. And there's such a high degree of attention to detail to every element. And what goes into creating something that comprehensive, which is highly intentional, I would think
Michael Marckx 39:26
would rephrase that for me. Sorry. Yeah,
Andrew Vontz 39:29
just a you know, whether it's the race Bible, the course itself, the way you curate the experience, it's pretty different from what you're experiencing. I mean, there's some events that that strive to put together that kind of experience, but yours is kind of on a different level. So behind the scenes, like what's going on to put together something that's that immersive for the participant.
Michael Marckx 39:57
Yet, like if we're firing on all cylinders, So, we've got a new course, which I always try and do a new course, ideally, what I do is, okay, here's a new sector, it's got a Flemish name, it's a funny name, we film it and talk about it. And you know, there could be 30 of those, but within the race, and then what I used to do is on a weekly basis, send out, Hey, here's a new sector. And here's the video of it, here's the explanation of it, you probably want to quit now, you know, that kind of a thing to both inspire and, and freak people out. Now, all of that gets then turned into 140 Page Bible that talks about each sector, what they're going to what you're going to experience during the race, what, maybe you should reconsider your tire choice, or whatever, weaving in our sponsors, weaving in all the things that you'd want to talk about, especially for like going on Indian land, let's talk about the Indian people and you know, their heritage and what they're about. Like, let's, let's give a little bit more detail to where it is we're writing the various things that we're going to go through there and celebrate the entirety of that experience, as as enjoyed through the prism of writing on these challenging sectors.
Andrew Vontz 41:32
Aside from what you're doing with, with DWR, you know, you've got a family. You've been a professional musician at this point in your life, how do the, how do you balance all this because you've got a lot of stuff going on.
Michael Marckx 41:48
Now, it's just about rooting the kids on our daughter's a sophomore at Columbia, or son's a senior at NYU. So it's like, let's just get him to the finish line. Hopefully, they'll play as much soccer as they can, and play music. And basically, for me, my main worry is, how do I make enough money to keep them in school. And then professionally, I'd like to, you know, just go back to just being a drummer, I'd like to just do that the rest of my life that would be fun. And riding the bike too. And, you know, I'm making steps towards that.
Andrew Vontz 42:30
What did playing in bands throughout your life teach you that you've brought into the world of business?
Michael Marckx 42:37
Well, you, you got to be able to talk the talk, walk the walk. And what I mean by that is, let's say you get hired, in this case by a band, their drummer was strung out on heroin. So you get hired to be their drummer, you have to know the material inside and out. You have to show up ready to go not waste anyone's time and nail it. And then once they become comfortable with you, you can suggest, hey, you know, that bridge? Why don't we do that in halftime, and do it a lot longer. And then that'll give you a chance to do a solo on the guitar. Let's extend this out. Because I've when I listened to this song, it, it just it's asking for more. And that way, you're adding value, so you're doing your job, then you're adding value now, go to the professional world, you get hired to do a job. And at some point in time, you want to do that job so expertly that then you can bring new solutions, new ideas, new inspiration to that organization, inspire other people, which then affects the culture, and otherwise makes for better business. So that I can liken those to that way and that you have to come into it. With discipline, with the ability to read the room and know when you should suggest something and when you shouldn't. And then ultimately, how do you add value to that enterprise? And how do you do so how do you communicate that to get everyone to buy into it? Those two things are very similar,
Andrew Vontz 44:21
but have been some of your favorite moments as a musician that you found to be the most satisfying.
Michael Marckx 44:31
When you a lot of the stuff that I play now is more loose like jazz stuff. So funky jazz, where if it was an eight minute song last night, it could be 12 minutes tonight. And when you're on stage, having a conversation with your bandmates in front of a large audience, and that conversation is being witnessed by them and it goes in places that it's never gone before the audience he not know that you didn't rehearse that. But on stage, you're going, Oh my God. And then when you finally come around to the head of the song, or when you're going to finish it, and you finish it, and everyone on the stage turns and looks at each other, and just kind of smokes, like, wow, I've had lots of those moments because of the kind of music we play. Now, we've also had lots of moments where it's like, oh, boy, someone went this direction, and someone went that direction in the conversation, and then you had to find your way back. So it was total failure. Again, a lot of times, the audience doesn't know, it just might seem a little awkward. But my favorite moments are those moments where you're, you're treading in new territory, together with other people, and you survive it. And it's really fun to do. So.
Andrew Vontz 45:48
How do you think about trust, in relation to that, that type of collaboration
Michael Marckx 45:55
with the trust, a lot of times comes down to the chemistry that you have with that person. So for instance, if I'm on stage with my brother, he's been my brother my whole life, and I've been playing music with him, I don't even need to look at him, when there's certain things that we're gonna mutually hit, so to speak, or emphasis. And then there's other times where you're playing with a new, someone new, and it takes a lot of time playing with them to get that chemistry. And the thing that benefits that is also hanging out with them while you're not practicing, while you're just sitting around talking and getting to know them and their influences and what's important to them, and what they what they do. And then that helps them part, create the chemistry on stage. So for me, everything's about chemistry, including the businesses that you run. If you've, if you're creating a good culture, whether within the band or within the business, there's a chemistry that happens that someone else in your team knows exactly what you're thinking or what you want. And they make that happen. And a lot of times, they come back and say, and I've got an idea, make an idea to make it even better. And that's the best because then the collaboration is working.
Andrew Vontz 47:12
When you're looking for people to collaborate with, whether it's music or business and like, let's set aside your brother, because like you said, he's your brother, you've been playing music together forever. What do you do to get a sense of whether they have the qualities that are going to lead to that level of collaboration and creating something, you know, bigger than the sum of its parts?
Michael Marckx 47:35
I think anytime you challenge somebody with a difficult question, and it doesn't have to necessarily be rated related to the task at hand, but just challenges in general and how people deal with challenges. That's the thing that I enjoyed. Like if I'm running a business, a lot of times I'll I'll, I'll ask somebody who isn't in marketing, but is in within the organization, I'll challenge them to say, Hey, you don't have to answer me now. But in the next few days, come back to me with an idea on how you think we could better market our brand. And give someone whether they're in customer service or graphic arts, or dare I say sales, you know, challenge them with, okay, you don't like what we're doing? What is it that you'd like to do? And what do you suggest, and then see what they come back with? I know one thing when I was hired to turn around spy, I sent an email to every 136 people in the business, just four simple questions, what's working here? What's not working here? What can we do to fix that? And is there anything else I should know. And then from the responses to that, I was able to determine who is engaged, who wasn't engaged, who wanted more and who didn't. And that helped me realign the business. And, you know, a month or two later, I fired 32 people all in the same day, because they were the people that really had no interest in being a part of that. Then I was able to hire 28 people to replace those 32 people, all of whom bought into the idea of creating happiness and fulfillment and all the things that we were the ethos of the spy brand. And that's how I ended up doing it. I just challenged people with some sometimes very simple questions.
Andrew Vontz 49:30
At the end of the day, what do you do to turn everything off and down, regulate and chill out?
Michael Marckx 49:39
I have a very hard time with that.
Andrew Vontz 49:41
I got I had this feeling that might be the case. You have a lot of stuff going on, man. How do you chill out?
Michael Marckx 49:48
Yeah. Because I also run a digital agency with my brother. So we're working with new clients all the time. And so I'm constantly thinking like shoot I could spend more time on that project because it's exciting. But then at some point, you got to turn it off. And I rarely do I find that taking the dog for a walk can be helpful if I don't bring the phone. Because then there's 40 minutes there, of decompression. A bike ride is probably the best thing for me, the first 30 or 40 minutes of a bike ride, I'll still be thinking about work. But then once I transcend that, I can get into the fun places that a bike can take you on your mind. So those are the things that I do. And unfortunately, I self medicate with alcohol to try and you know, transition to a less agitated state.
Andrew Vontz 50:46
How much attention do you pay to your sleep?
Michael Marckx 50:49
Quite a bit, I use a whoop. And I because I've struggled with sleep my whole life. And then the last few years, I had some major stress going on where sometimes I wouldn't sleep for two nights in a row. I started getting into into the the science of sleep, and I pay attention to my whoop every single day, multiple times a day.
Andrew Vontz 51:14
Have you changed things to try to get better sleep? Yeah,
Michael Marckx 51:18
consistency. Reading before I go to sleep helps me. If I don't drink at all that helps. But that usually takes time to even get into that state. And then certain things like tea at night, like the right kind of tea. That helps like I've tried and practice these rituals that helped me get into the idea that I'm going to sleep now.
Andrew Vontz 51:47
Yeah. When you look ahead, is there anything? Do you have any big audacious goals that you haven't given a shot yet that you want to try?
Michael Marckx 51:59
Yeah, I I'd really like to have our team have the Belgian waffle ride show up in myriad places in Europe and create something where you think well, then that's the birthplace of all this stuff. But what if we could bring something to them, that they don't have this pageantry and celebration and something that could capture the imagination of new writers. In Belgium, for instance, that would be great. Like that's a big aspiration for me is spreading the love to Europe and beyond.
Andrew Vontz 52:38
How far are you from making that happen?
Michael Marckx 52:41
Not that far.
Andrew Vontz 52:43
Do you want to say anything else about that?
Michael Marckx 52:48
Our team's working on it. And I think that things will fall into place in the near future.
Andrew Vontz 52:54
Yeah. And when you make that happen, do you see you know, like with the Triple Crown, do you see it becoming a global thing? Or do you think? Is that kind of TBD?
Michael Marckx 53:06
No, what I think is, there'll be a triple crown in Canada. There'll be a triple crown in the US. There'll be a triple crown in Mexico. And then there'll be one off events throughout Europe and South America. And, you know, maybe in Europe, the first thing we do is one event, and then the next year we do a triple crown. Right. That's how I see it unfolding.
Andrew Vontz 53:30
And then over time, do you see there being a world championship type event from among Triple Crown winners or something like that? Yeah,
Michael Marckx 53:38
we've you know, I worked with Iron Man in the past. So I learned quite a bit. And, you know, it's sort of an Iron Man model that yeah, eventually wouldn't it be great if let's just say San Diego, because it's the OG event that that became the World Championship, you know, and, and maybe we moved that to October or something to like the Ironman, which is in October, and then let all those events sort of send people to the World Championship or whatever, whatever we call it.
Andrew Vontz 54:13
Job back to something we were talking about. At the beginning of this conversation, what did other kids think about you and your brother and your family and going out there and running marathons? Eight and 12.
Michael Marckx 54:25
Yeah, well, it it goes back to the culture we were immersed in. We weren't that much of an aberration. Like I remember at my junior high. The last week of school, they the mayor of the palace, Verdi's marathon where I grew up, I ran it 31 times in a row. At junior high, they would announce every kid that did it, you know, and back then it wasn't a half marathon. It was a marathon and it was really hard. We were a part of the community where the Hear that I, when I was 14, I ran in the 240s for the marathon and won the 14 and under division. There were 54 other kids in that division that ran the marathon that year. And that's just how it was. So we were part of a community that did crazy things. So like me paddling my surfboard for 20 Miles was just like, yeah, just something you did in the summer. And my brothers running it, and they were eight or nine, there were kids that were running it when they were six, or seven. So you know, no big deal. And I kept at it, I kept doing it. Even though some years I wouldn't even run between the marathon I wanted to keep my streak alive. Then I finally had knee surgery. And my knee hurt too much. But I wanted to keep my streak alive. So I woke up at like, three in the morning, drove down to the start of the race, and started jogging it. I made it about six miles, and had to turn around and walk back and drove back home and got home at like, I don't know, five something in the morning and woke my wife up. She said, What were you doing is like, Oh, I'll tell you in the morning. That was my last ditch attempt to try and keep the streak alive. And I just I cannot run anymore.
Andrew Vontz 56:20
I thought you're gonna tell me that you were out there on rollerblades, Michael.
Michael Marckx 56:28
I did. Direct the first ever inline marathon championships in 1991. I think it was the year, the same year that I directed the Orange County marathon which started at Anaheim stadium and then finished at UC Irvine and closer to the beach and went through six municipalities. Oh,
Andrew Vontz 56:48
wow. Yeah. How did that go? It's
Michael Marckx 56:53
so interesting in so many ways. It was also the US National marathon championships for wheelchair. So there's all sorts of crazy stuff going on. It was November 3, it was unseasonably hot. We were struggling to get water, you know, like it was just chaos, going through six different municipalities to get, you know, point to point. We had to like time it so that there were two different trains that the race had to make it through. And they were hopefully going to be on time because we started right on the money. Yeah. And got everyone through that was chaotic. Because could you imagine like, a really long freight train stopping a race. And we see that kind of intuitive fonts and other races. But like, imagine that for a marathon? How do you deal with that?
Andrew Vontz 57:42
I think you'd have all the people running the marathon actually lift the train would have to be on loaded. But I think that it's possible if you have a lot of teamwork, a little collaboration. Yeah. What does it take to be a great race director? What characteristics do you have to have?
Michael Marckx 58:03
I don't know. I've never thought about that, or considered myself that. I think you gotta be a party planner. And you want your guests to have the best time from the moment they get the invite, to the moment they get home and lay their head on the pillow and say, God, that was such a great event. So it comes down to attention to detail at every facet. You know, where the porta potties are, is important, how warm the waffles are, how cold the beer is, how safe the races, make sure there's no trains in the way, like every little thing. I think race directors job is to think about the known and to anticipate the unknown.
Andrew Vontz 58:56
Think about the known and anticipate the unknown. I think that those are great parting words of wisdom. So Michael, thanks for being here today. And thanks for this conversation. I really enjoyed it.
Michael Marckx 59:07
Thank you, Andrew. That was fun.