Michelle "MACE" Curran: ex USAF Thunderbird Lead Soloist, F16 Fighter Pilot, Endurance Athlete & Entrepreneur
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Michelle Curran, call sign MACE, spent three years flying in the United States Air Force Thunderbirds aerial demonstration team and was the lead soloist for two of those years flying on the outer left wing of the delta formation.
Michelle was the fifth woman ever to be a member of the Thunderbirds and while deployed as a fighter pilot in Afghanistan in 2016, she acquired 163 combat hours. When Michelle left the Thunderbirds in 2021 she continued to pursue her passion for inspiring and motivating people in a slightly different format. Today she’s a keynote speaker and the author of the children’s book Upside Down Dreams and a forthcoming biography.
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Michelle has done many fantastic podcast appearances about leadership and lessons learned from her time in combat and the Thunderbirds. In this interview, we go deep on new topics including risk management, vulnerability, the power of extraordinary effort, why you must become an expert learner to become the very best at anything, and the role mountaineering, running and strength training played in helping Michelle prepare for and heal from the physical demands of pulling 9 G’s while on the road 240 days a year with the Thunderbirds and more.
My uncles used to take me to the airshow at Richards Gebauer air base outside Kansas City every summer when I was a kid and watching the United States Air Force Thunderbirds was one of the most truly awe inspiring things I have ever experienced. This one is extra special for me and I’m really excited to share it with you.
Special thank you to former Choose the Hard Way guest Ben Davis, the author, former Navy SEAL and VOAG executive director for connecting me to Michelle, very much appreciated. You can catch my interview with Ben in the archives.
Choose the Hard Way is a podcast about how doing hard things is fun. Please help more people find this podcast. To do that, just hit subscribe and rate the show five stars on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and share this episode with someone you care about.
Go to choosethehardway.com to sign up for the newsletter and if there’s someone you think would make a great guest, DM @hardwaypod.
Choose The Hard Way is a Big Truck Production. Anthony Palmer at Palm Tree Pod Co is the producer and editor and Emily Miles is head of digital and marketing. Jeffrey Nebolini is the world-renowned designer behind our brand identity and the Choose the Hard Way logo. The content for this show is created by @vontz.
In This Episode:
Michelle “MACE” Curran Instagram | Website | LinkedIn
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Andrew Vontz 1:49
That's incredible. I have to say one of the questions that I have having, as I said, having listened to a number of different interviews with you, you know, could you describe what the role is? And why is it so hard to fly the role and the position that you were in, in the formation and the Thunderbirds?
Michelle Curran 2:06
Oh, yeah. Like the actual roll maneuver like No, not like my role on the team.
Andrew Vontz 2:11
No, no, no. Yeah. Roi. lol not our Oh, la. Yes. You
Michelle Curran 2:14
know what? Not a lot of occupations where you get those two confused, but yeah, on the Thunderbirds, yeah. So I was the my first got hired, I was number six, the opposing solo. And then your second year with the team, you always graduate to number five, the lead solo. And then I got a bonus here because of COVID. So I did a second year is number five, so three years total. But I was this gets confusing, but I was also the left solo for all three years, which means I was flew on the far left side of the formation. So for anyone that seen the Thunderbirds or the Blue Angels, for that matter, we both fly in the same delta formation when all six jets are together. So you have you know, number one out front, then you have the two wing men on the left side on the right side. And then you have the outriggers, which are the two solos. And our team I was does left rolls. And so if you picture a barrel roll, where you're basically like making a loop spiral through the air, kind of like you do on some roller coasters. So it's not an aileron roll, where you just roll really quick, it's like you actually gain elevation throughout it, and then back down on the backside. I was on the inside of that. So the F 16 has a side stick, which is awesome. But you're pulling back initially as the whole formation goes up in elevation and up in attitude. And then you're starting to roll to the left. But as you come over the top and go through about 90 degrees of bank, now you just have to start pushing on the stick, which is very counterintuitive. Use the joystick for anything, you can probably see why would be kind of weird because you're pulling, starting to roll and then you're pushing forward while you're continuing to roll. And to do that movement with such precision, that you're not moving away or too close, when you're only three feet away from another aircraft at 300. And some miles an hour up to 400 miles an hour. It's just challenging. And there's like this really tiny, perfect window where you have to swap which rudder you're using with your feet. Right so that you don't get too wide. And if you are too soon with that, you'll get too close and you'll scare yourself. And if you're too late, which is what most people do, they'll fall out the bottom. And so you'll end up wide on the backside of the roll. It looks like crap, you feel bad. And then you got to try to be better the next day.
Andrew Vontz 4:29
Yeah, and if that happens, I would guess that in the after action report or hot wash you then hear about it.
Michelle Curran 4:36
I mean, you hear about everything that went wrong, right like, right any given flight, whether it's practice, or it's a show or it's the first show this season or the last show of the season, we would do the debrief and pull up the tapes. We have a really nice superzoom camera show center that is tracking every maneuver the whole formation for the whole demo. And so you're gonna watch that with the whole officer corps. Sitting there was only 12 of us. So it's small, but you know, Thunderbird, one is there, the boss, all the other pilots, you're gonna watch that no matter what. So we always will go around the table and whoever is involved in that maneuver that's about to be played, has the opportunity to share any mistakes that they made, or to just say like they have nothing. And then we're going to watch it. So there's, there's no sweeping it under the rug, you're hiding it, because it's going to be out there for everyone not to mention the 10s of 1000s, sometimes hundreds of 1000s of people that are watching from the crowd.
Andrew Vontz 5:30
When you were a kid, did you You Probably Didn't Know proprioception and your vestibular system were when you were really a little kid. But at what point did you have the sense that you might have the capacity and those domains to actually do what you ended up doing? Or is that only something you discovered, as you tested higher and higher and higher, into what you eventually became?
Michelle Curran 5:51
Yeah, that's the second. So I was an adventurous kid that loved exciting things, loved roller coasters, like skydiving, like I was just kind of a thrill seeker. And I knew I had the stomach for that kind of stuff. But I didn't know that I had the skills or capacity to learn the skills until I was in the thick of it. And that's one thing that I always make sure people are aware of when they come to me, and they're like, hey, I want to be a fighter pilot. How do I make that happen? I'm like, well, you're signing up for the military, and there's a good chance you won't be a fighter pilot, like, you'd have to be okay with that, right? Because you're signing a contract. And when the Air Force invest years of times, and over a million dollars to train you, you come out the other side, with an airframe assigned to you. I mean, in my class, there was only two fighter aircraft for a class of 25. So not that everyone in the class wanted to be a fighter pilot. But there were a bunch of people that were disappointed that they ended up going and flying, you know, like C 17, cargo aircraft, or air fuel or something like that. So a lot of people just don't have the aptitude to get there, or they can't get there fast enough. Based on what's allowable in the training program, right? They can only spend so much time doing extra training with people and some people won't get there some well, and it all depends on how good your classes what aircraft are available from the Air Force. And I don't know what it was, but I just took to the physical flying part very quickly. And so once I kind of got my footing in the formal training program, because I came in with zero civilian flight time, and also a criminal justice degree, which is not super useful, turns out. So there was a little bit of the drinking from a firehose, initially, when I was trying to learn all the basics of like, systems of the aircraft and aerodynamics, and all these concepts that a lot of my peers already knew, because they were engineering majors, or they had a bunch of general aviation time their their private pilot's license. Once I got past that, I quickly caught up to them. And then I just took to the hands on flying very quickly, I put in a ton of work and a ton of preparation for every flight. I think I have, you know, I'm a perfectionist to some extent, and I always have a lot of doubt and impostor syndrome, or I did at that time. And so to counteract that I would prepare at like a ridiculous level. And that actually got me to a point where I started to do better than other people, eventually, I was able to get one of the fighter aircraft.
Andrew Vontz 8:21
Because of your perfectionism and your tendency to over prepare, did you sometimes enter high stress situations where you had to perform with a level of arousal that was too high or too much anxiety that actually undercut your ability to perform? Or for you? Did it amplify your ability to perform?
Michelle Curran 8:40
I mean, I've think I've experienced both, I think it's like a fine line that you're trying to walk all the time. I will get very nervous before, things like before a flight before checkride, even before air shows once I was at that level. But usually, once I was in the cockpit, I had, you know, what we call chair flying, I had done a bunch of that where you sit and you visualize through the whole flight, everything from radio calls to switches that you're flipping to where you're looking. And so I felt like I prepared to a level where once the job was started, the canopy was closed and we're taxiing. I'm like okay, now I'm in my bubble. I have control of what's happening now. So I would just, you know, what's next? What's the task at hand and I was really good at compartmentalizing and shoving that stress and anxiety to the side. I definitely had a handful of flights where you experience a helmet fire is what we call it where you know, like if it was possible smoke would be coming out of your ears because your brain is just behind. You can't catch up to the jet. There's like all kinds of funny sayings around it. But instructors will be like yeah, my student was back there hanging on to the elevator for the whole flight. Like they just couldn't get ahead of the aircraft because things are happening quick. And once you fall behind mentally it's very hard to get back caught up. And so I've had that feeling where or something that you're very good at, you've flown really well and other flights just starts to fall apart and you feel like, you can't focus, like your heart rate goes up, your hands will get shaky, and you're just like holy crap like this, the train has left the tracks at this point like, well, this is not going well, and you can let that snowball and ruin an entire flight. And it can be pretty disastrous. And so one of the things we're told from very early on is, you have to be able to compartmentalize stuffs going to go wrong, every single flight, it might be something tiny, it might be something big. But you have to set it aside and be like, well, that sucks. I'll deal with it during the debrief. What do I need to be focusing on right now? And I think I got pretty good at that fairly quickly.
Andrew Vontz 10:41
Of all the experiences that you've had on an airplane, what is the experience that freaked you out the most?
Michelle Curran 10:49
Oh, man. I mean, there are several, you kind of have different types, right? You have. I had a bird when we were flying in Columbia during an airshow, a vulture. And so that put two big holes in the side of the airplane. So that's, you know, that's like one of those kind of come to Jesus moments, right? Like, Oh, am I did that go in the intake is that in my engine, F 16 only has one motor, we do have an ejection seat. But that, you know, you watch Top Gun and you're like, you can eject that any airspeed and everything will be fine. That is not how it works. People like break their backs, they break their arms, they dislocate shoulders, it's this traumatic thing you do not want to do. But I ended up planning the aircraft fine. And I felt like I had more stress when I actually saw the damage when I got out of the cockpit and got went down the ladder and was like, wow, that I mean, large bird, but still fairly small as in terms of things that you could hit, did a lot of damage. So you have that moment, which is like a gut drop moment where like, Oh, shit. And then did you
Andrew Vontz 11:54
sorry to interrupt you. But did you know that it specifically what had happened? Were you like vulture, okay. Yes. Went through my aircraft.
Michelle Curran 12:02
I definitely knew what had happened. I saw it. And that makes it sound like Well, why didn't you avoid it, you're in like the one of the most maneuverable aircraft in the world. So I was trapped, I was about 2000 feet above the ground, going 450 knots, which is over 500 miles an hour. It was literally I mean, you have temporal distortion, your brain slows things down. So I straight up saw the bird It was literally like spread eagle facing my jet as it was like writing, you know, the columns of air as they do. And I it was just a second for my brain to process, there was no time to move the jet. And I have a GoPro video of it. Because I had a camera running. And it's just a flash, like it's a split second. And then I heard it hit the aircraft, I heard the thud. But then more than that, like felt the vibration of an impact in my feet. So I was like, Oh, that was a solid hit. I had hit birds before. But they were like Tweety birds, right? They're tiny, it was a sparrow or something like that. So those generally don't do damage. And if they do, it's super minor. A lot of times you won't even know you hit it until you land and like maintenance is doing an inspection and they happen to see some like blood smear from it. This one, there was no doubt I knew exactly what had happened. And then it was just what was probably just a couple of seconds but felt like forever for me as I had to wait for opening on the radio to let everyone else know what had just happened. Because the diamond jets one through four, we're in the middle of a loop at that moment. So Thunderbird one leading that is like talking on the radio nonstop, so that people can match his control inputs. So I can't just like step on them on the radio. So I had to just be silent and just stare at my engine stack and just wait to see if the RPM was going to wind back or you know you you hear all these things about what it'll be like if the bird goes down the engine so you're kind of just waiting to see if that's gonna happen, but luckily, it did not part of it did go down the intake but not the big portion that put holes in the jet that went around the side of it. If the jet or the bird had been about six inches either direction, it would have gone straight down the engine. So that would be a different story.
Andrew Vontz 14:13
How did you let go of that experience after it happened?
Michelle Curran 14:16
It It took some time right like our policy on the Thunderbirds. If you're in a single aircraft, not close formation, you can try to avoid the birds like a lot of times they'll dive so you can pull up on the stick and try to go over them. You can't do that when you have other aircraft flying on your wing you know three feet away and so our mentality that people are taught from the time they get hired is like no flinch. Like if you see a bird about to fly through the middle of our formation you're just gonna watch it happen and we'll deal with the the results on the other side because you moving your aircraft and hitting another aircraft is going to have way more severe results. So that is counterintuitive to your survival instinct, you know to not flinch. Um, I guess it'd be kind of like you're driving down the road and a deer walks out and you're like, I'm just gonna drive straight and hope it moves. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But we've had, you know, hawks or Eagles like large birds split our formation, like go between two jets, many times. So that that's kind of the mentality that gets harder to do, though, when you've actually had some experience that even though it turned out completely fine, it still was scary at the time, right. So you have a little bit of that like lingering kind of mild PTSD type feeling from it, where you want to flinch so bad. And I found myself sometimes like widening out my formation, not like maneuvering my jet to avoid the bird, but just starting to rudder slowly away from the aircraft next to me to put more space between us, as I would see a bird coming. And that a bird one, our boss, at one point was like, you gotta stop doing that, like just no flinch. Like, it'll be fine. Like, we'll deal like, You got to stop doing that. And it was hard. So it probably took me a couple of weeks to not think about it anymore. And yeah, it's just one of those things, I think, you know, it's like, you gotta get back on the horse. But that doesn't mean your brain just forgets about it immediately.
Andrew Vontz 16:19
Now, I'm wondering, have large groups of birds ever been deployed as anti aircraft defense measures in the history of war? Do you know?
Michelle Curran 16:29
I don't think so. I think they're too unpredictable, right? Like, they probably would be like, oh, yeah, that field over there. We're gonna go eat and he'd be like, No, we need you over here.
Andrew Vontz 16:38
I don't know if you have enough, though.
Michelle Curran 16:40
I feel like you could do something. If you could control them. Then you might as well use drones, right? Like, yeah, sure.
Andrew Vontz 16:48
Yeah, sure. All right. We're getting a little bit a little bit of drift here. I feel like you had a second story about something super gnarly. That happened while you were flying.
Michelle Curran 16:56
Oh, yes, I've had a couple. And then you have the thing where like, when everything does go as planned, but it's just a stressful situation. So like reference combat scenarios, like danger, close your, you need to be successful with your delivery of whatever you're dropping. And you need to make sure it goes where it's supposed to go. Because there could be really bad consequences if you don't. So even though, every time I did that things pretty much went as planned, it's still is very stressful in the moment, because you realize how real, how high the repercussions can be. And then, another Thunderbird example, which I think I've only told this story, maybe once so you probably haven't heard it, when I was a brand new lead solo. So there was a brand new opposing solo who was fresh to the team. We were I was instructing him teaching him those head on passes what looks like a game of chicken, right? Like we fly straight at each other. We're both going 500 miles an hour. So we say 1000 miles an hour of closure, you're looking at a needlenose F 16. You know, looking straight on, it's very hard to see, especially when it's painted white, it's really only the smoke coming out the back that allows you to visually pick it up. And we do not use any sort of sensor between our two aircrafts for setting the spacing. So when people see those two jets pass, it looks like they're going to hit and that's what we call a good hit. And that's what we want, like it's shocking off for the crowd, which is the goal. But in reality, it's all optics. So for me, on this particular Pass, which was the opposing inverted, I would be upside down at about 150 feet off the ground, flying right over whatever the show line was. So if say it's a runway at most air shows, I will be flying right over it. Number six, is responsible for being a little bit further away from the crowd and a little bit higher, so that when they're looking up at an angle, it looks like our jets are overlapped. But he's responsible for setting that spacing visually. That is tricky. Initially, it's just something you kind of have to feel out. And basically every new solo error is on the wide, the wide side, so they're too far away too far away. And that's like we're hitting in the debrief every time we're like, Well, that would have been a good hit. But your jet looks tiny compared to mine, because you're too far away, you need to get closer you need to get closer. And so he found the other end of the spectrum on that flight. I was upside down. And I could see his aircraft coming at mine. But because the offset is so small, in my my heads up display where I'm looking through with all of my data in it, it almost looks when everything's going right like he's right in the middle, like you can't tell that he's going to offset to the side until very, very end game when it's almost like just like this neck snapping line of sight where he's passing you. So it's very late for you to recognize that because we are very close together. So everything looked fine and then again temporal distortion, where I knew I should start to see his aircraft drift towards the side that he offsets to it didn't it was just squared up center of my hood and And we each have a safety out, where we can run our towards our side of the line to get away from each other if something goes wrong. For me as the lead solo, I own the side of the line that's towards the crowd. And he owns the sideline that's away from the crowd. But the kicker on this one is it was practice during, you know, the initial practices and where we're learning everything training season. So we were out over the range in the desert, north of Las Vegas. So our show line is just a bunch of Conex containers lined up, there is no crowd out there. And it's just flat, brown dirt, there's nothing to distinguish which side of the line is which. And normally, if you're flying straight at each other, and your right side up, is very obvious. You're like, oh, cool, I own to the left. When you flip yourself upside down, it gets very disorienting. And I had this split second where I was like, I need to run into my side. And then I realized I wasn't 100% Sure which side was my side. And I knew if I referred to the wrong side, I would for sure hit him, right because even if he tries to react and offset last second, we're gonna go the same direction. And so all of this, all these thoughts happen in like, a split second. And I make a decision that I'm just going to not move, I'm gonna go with the no flinch gameplan like we do for birds, but against another jet. And so I was like, he will have self preservation, he will maneuver his aircraft because he is responsible for that offset. He was also upright at that point, because we pass in the middle. And as we pass, I flip ups, I flip upright, he flips upside down. So I was like, he's got to do this. And I remember just it was like it was slow motion. His jet like getting so big in front of me and then seeing his wing roll up, as he disappears below the belly of my aircraft. And I didn't make the radio call I was supposed to make because I'm supposed to make a hidden call that signals us to do that kind of flip. I didn't say anything. A few seconds went by it didn't say anything. And then like my brain caught back up. And we went on with the practice. And I called the rest of the maneuver. We practice the rest of it, we landed. And we got out of our cockpits, and he walked up and he was like, I am so sorry. Like, he knew immediately that he had made a huge mistake. And we watched the HUD tape, where you can really just see a recording of that tiny bit. Maybe you've seen Top Gun, you've seen a bunch of HUDs. It's where the altitude and everything is shown with the like green display. I've never seen another jet, so big in my head tape in my entire career. And that says a lot because I mean, I've gotten someone where I was right behind them. But we're going in the same direction at that point. So you can get pretty close and you have a 500 foot cut off for training, but you can get pretty close. The aircraft gets big. But this jet is going 500 miles an hour at me. And I'm going 500 miles an hour. So the closure we have the fact that he was that close to me. Yeah, that was of all those things. I've said that was probably it happens so fast. But I was like, well, this might be it. And there's nothing I can do about it. I'm just gonna hold it hope for the best. And hey, here we are. So now it's just a story. But that one was shocking, I guess afterwards.
Andrew Vontz 23:11
Yeah, it sounds shocking. And I can't imagine what it would be like to experience that. But that's, that's so intense. I mean, you've said, you mentioned a few times that you experience temporal distortion. When you're in the midst of doing these maneuvers, cognitively, what else is going on? That is not that's different than what people are experiencing day to day when they're out doing things, even things that require a high degree of proprioceptive awareness or vestibular command? Like, are there certain cognitive things that you train for that you have to think through where things that are not as they seem as they're happening that you just have to prepare for?
Michelle Curran 23:55
I think the biggest thing is just the speed that all these thoughts and decisions are happening at. And that's a learned thing for sure. Because you know, when you start flying, you start in a much smaller, slower aircraft, where you're flying around at 90 knots. And things still feel like they're happening fast, like you can't keep up. And actually you get on top of that. And you're like, Okay, I can operate at the speed, then you move up to the next aircraft. And now it's like 300 knots, then you move up to a jet trainer, and you know, from there on, and then all of a sudden, you're at an F 16 Where you're cruising around at 500 miles an hour and the Thunderbirds are an extreme example. Because there's just not the margins for error are so small, that you have to make adjustments and decisions in a split second. And so I always find it pretty incredible that our brains are that adaptable, that with training, we can become like that. We can react that quickly. And I've pretty like well thought out intelligent thoughts under high stress and a fast paced environment. And I think, you know, there's other experiences that people have had In the military, the words kind of similar combat situations where it's just mass chaos. And they're still thinking clearly. And that's where all that training really pays off. Because I don't think anyone has that ability just inherently, it's something you got to practice and slowly adapt to over time.
Andrew Vontz 25:17
The second example that you mentioned, use the term Danger, danger close. I know what that is. But for my listeners who don't know what that is, could you explain what that is, and what's happening when you're dropping ordinance in that context?
Michelle Curran 25:32
Yeah, so that just means that the friendly forces are closer than ideally, they would be right. So they're, they're close enough where there's still a small chance, but there's a chance that they could get hit by shrapnel from the weapon from debris from the weapon. So they're, you know, they're in an area that's so close, that it's dangerous, but the stakes are so high that you still have to drop the weapon. So usually, in those situations, it's only if you know, they're taking fire, they're like, We need it right now. Like they have to get taken out or they're going to overrun us or you know, people are at risk of losing lives, or it's a really high value target. And they do what they can to mitigate their danger by you know, getting behind cover if they can by laying down so they're not standing up and as at risk, but it adds a level of, of stress and complexity to the mission, when as far as which direction you come in with the weapon and which direction if you were to, if you're in a mess, it's usually going to be short or long, not left or right. And so you take that into consideration, as well with like your running direction, and then you have to get approval from a higher person up the chain of command. I think the biggest thing is that it just it ups the stress and the stakes.
Andrew Vontz 26:45
Yeah, I imagined that it would, and I'm gonna go in a totally different direction here. But what's your background with what you've done? How do you approach something like you're going to the grocery store,
Michelle Curran 26:58
like a normal person, except that my patience for other people is low I that's like a byproduct, I think that I've noticed, especially when I would come out of an intensive training environment where like, I had kind of like leveled up and I had been pushed a lot to get better and more efficient. And then I would go do normal day to day stuff. And I'd be like, This person blocking the whole aisle with their cart, or this person walking so freakin slow, like, my patients does not have space for this. Otherwise, like a very normal person.
Andrew Vontz 27:32
Yeah. And both when you were in the military, and now, what role has endurance sports things like hiking, mountaineering? When did you get involved in these things? And what role have they played in your life?
Michelle Curran 27:47
It's varied. So I was not an athlete in high school, really. People are shocked when I like the sport I did the longest as a kid was figure skating, which I know it's the podcast, so people can't see me. But I'm like 510 and muscular. I'm not a Tara Lipinski. Like, I'm not built as a figure skater. But it was something I started when I was really young. And I just did it all the way through high school. And then I was a thrower in track like shot and discus. And part of when I applied for my Air Force ROTC scholarship, I had to run a mock physical fitness test, and the scores went into my scholarship package. And I was just not a runner then. So I had the track coach come out in time, my mile and a half. And it was like, embarrassingly slow, I think it was like 13 and a half minutes to run a mile and a half. And I just remember, it was November in Wisconsin, it was cold, and my lungs were burning. And I felt like I pushed so hard. And I was like, I never want to do that. Again. That was terrible. And then I got an Air Force ROTC scholarship, and I went off to college, and I had to do PT three mornings, a week, every week. And I started to like it. And I started to realize that there were a lot of benefits that came from the pushing your body that could happen and kind of that like mental self talk you had to do to keep going even when things hurt, and things felt uncomfortable. And it was a gradual process. But by the time I was done with college, I was maxing out the physical fitness test and actually beating a lot of the guys. And one of the things that was out was in any of my performance reports and stuff was that I was a really good runner. And I was like, I don't know who this person is, but we're gonna go with it. And then I ran my first marathon right after I graduated college, and it was not fast. It was like four hours. But I remember being like, Okay, that was actually pretty enjoyable. And there's a lot of room for improvement there. Like this could be something that I could, you know, do more of. I got a little bit busy at that point, because I went off to pilot training off to f 16 training after my first combat squadron there just wasn't time to train for any long endurance things. But I continued to you know, kind of just run recreationally and then I actually ended up Going through a divorce while I was stationed in masala. And that was hard as they always are, I think for most people's experience, and I think one of my coping mechanisms was I would like go out and run. And I would push myself harder than I probably is healthy, I would I remember doing sprint intervals until I would like dry heave, which probably not recommended, but I started to get faster. I remember I podiumed actually had a half marathon in Japan. And I have a video of it. It's everyone else on the podium or Japanese women. And then there's me and I'm a giant. And it was actually like the Amaury Apple marathon. And so the prize for podium ng was a case of apples. And so like, Japanese guy walks up there with this case of apples, and he bows, and I bow back, and then he like, gives me my apples while I'm this giant on the podium. And it just got started to be really fun as it got more competitive. And during that time, well, you know, I went through the divorce. But during that first assignment, I also was just struggling with a lot of things professionally, you know, I'd done really well I got this my first choice of aircraft, the F 16, I'd gone off to f 16 training and done kind of like middle of my class, not exceptional and not terrible. But then I got to my first combat squadron. And I realized that this whole fighter pilot thing was a lot harder and a lot more complicated than I imagined, there was a lot more going into it than just flying the airplane, which I'd taken do pretty quickly. But what I did not take too quickly, was all the tactical and the technical stuff. So there is just a mountain of knowledge to learn. And a lot of it doesn't even make sense. So I would spend hours in the vault trying to learn this stuff. And I would be reading this manual. And I would realize I didn't even know what half the acronyms in the manual meant. And so I'd have to spend all this time looking up acronyms. To even get context, it was like learning a new language. And I just for the first time, even if I put in as much work as I had time for like, you know, 12 hour days, 14 hour days, I just felt like I couldn't get there. And that was really demoralizing. And it kind of shook my identity a little bit because I was I was this you know, high achiever, I did well at things. I just naturally was good at stuff. And this was not the case in this situation. And so I really struggled there was quite a while, like several years where I was like I somehow snuck into this, but I don't think I'm actually good enough to be here. And I thought everyone else knew more than me. Turns out they didn't, because I've talked to those people since and they're like, Yeah, I felt the same way. I'm like, Well, that would have been cool if we could have talked about that, because I felt very isolated, and alone in my struggles. And then there was kind of the whole identity thing with finding your footing in such a specific culture as a fighter squadron. And then you kind of layer in being a one of two women and a group of about 50 pilots. And you're like, I'm new, I'm trying to learn this job and show that I can do it. Also, what do I put up with, like, I want to be one of the guys. But I also don't want to just put up with anything, because in any woman that follows in my footsteps. Now I've set her up for that. So there's all this like, layers of intricacy of like responsibilities you feel like you have when you're in that male dominated of a career field. And so I was dealing with all of that. And one of the things that helped me kind of come out of that tough period, was getting into endurance sports. And I moved to my next space, which was in Texas, and I started running marathons there and I did a 50k. And that's when I got into mountaineering. And just the grind of training and long miles was like so therapeutic. Like there was I feel like we're constantly pulled in so many directions with our attention, right, like checking your phone and email and your smartwatches going off and your kids talking to you and like it's just nonstop. But that was a place where I could just focus on listening to my music or I would often run with just no music and just listen to my breathing and my like the footsteps and I found it very relaxing. But also over time, my mental strength just grew a crazy amount. It's so comparable to strength training in the gym, like stuff that you don't think you can do. You start to add a little bit to it each week and then you know, six months later you look back and you're like, holy crap, the progress I have made even though it didn't feel like it is huge. And even though I've taken breaks from it various points for injuries just for during the Thunderbirds, we were on the road 240 days a year. There just wasn't time. I still many times when I'm needing to push myself. I will reference kind of those long periods I went through or even during a race when it was like the final few miles and I was racing a person that I somehow gotten paired up with same pace you know you had a bracing someone as you come in For the last couple of miles, I would think about how hard I could push my body beyond what I thought. And that would still give me that ability to push myself years later. So I think it's like a really cool, powerful tool to use. And I wish more people would get into it, because I think it doesn't really matter how fast you are. It's really just the fact that you're willing to push yourself wherever you're at.
Andrew Vontz 35:24
You mentioned that sometimes he would listen to music, and sometimes he would just listen to your own breathing. Were there any specific conditions or any specific states that you were in or anything going on emotionally, when you would want music, versus when you would just be present with your breath, and whatever was happening?
Michelle Curran 35:43
I'm trying to think I think, when I was training harder, and like really specific with my goals, and trying to progress, I would tend to not listen to music. Or sometimes it was a long run, I would not listen to it until the very end. And then it was almost like a little supercharge to get you through like the last little bit where you kind of get desensitized to it if it's just playing nonstop in the background. So yeah, it's funny, because now, I really love podcasts. And I really love you know, audiobooks. And so if I go out and do anything, even if it's just going for a walk, I almost always have something playing in my headphones. And I've been told by a lot of creatives now that I'm like writing and speaking and doing that kind of thing that really like you have to go do it without the music without that distraction, because it's some of the best time for you to think of new ideas, and to brainstorm and it's just a chance, like I mentioned, to get away from all the distractions and really, really think of new things that you don't create space to do in your day to day life.
Andrew Vontz 36:48
This might sound weird, given that we're recording on podcast right now I've done almost almost 100 episodes of those podcasts. I've done probably 50 episodes beyond the peloton, cycling podcast, I co host and I've been a guest on a bunch of podcasts as well. I hit a point probably eight months ago, where I realized I was constantly listening to podcasts or audiobooks. And one 100% of the time when I was doing activities like training, washing the dishes, cooking whatever the case may be. And I still do that sometimes. But I also started to think about why am I filling up all of the all of the blank canvas in my brain with inputs. And I think part of it like a lot of people, I want to learn as much as possible. And I'm really curious and interested in a lot of different topics. But I also started to pay attention, particularly with training, I've found that when I'm most focused and present, it's when I don't feel compelled to actually listen to anything. And it's actually for me, that's a really hard, hard state to achieve. So that's kind of, you know, when I get there with my training, I'll have periods of training when I'm like, yeah, actually, I don't feel like I need anything. I can go on a four hour ride and just be with my mind. I don't know, for me, that's really challenging. And there's something really satisfying about being able to do that sometimes. So I'm just really curious how that shows up for you.
Michelle Curran 38:23
Yeah, I'm guilty of that, for sure. I will find myself especially if I'm listening to something that I'm really interested in, I found like a really great podcast episode or an audio book or whatever, I will put it on. Anytime there's like, I'm like, getting ready in the morning, I'm washing my face and brushing my teeth. It's gonna take me five minutes. Let me turn this on. It like fills every little downtime, where you might have time to just reflect on things. And so no, I, I'm guilty that I feel like we've just as a society add more and more towards that, right, like just so much consumption. And so you have to be pretty intentional to avoid it, because that's kind of like the natural state we find ourselves in now. And what you mentioned made me think of another aviation tie while while flying for the Thunderbirds. You know, we obviously aren't listening to music in the cockpit, like the radio calls are pretty consistent with either the boss talking or with me talking as the lead solo. And you kind of just get used to that stuff and it goes in the background and you realize like, you'll think about different things while you're flying. And sometimes that's kind of scary and some complacency sneaks in as your mind wanders when you're in pretty, I guess pretty like high stakes formations. But there also is this level of focus that I haven't really found other places since. When you're like in that role that we kick the podcast off with when I'm in a maneuver like that. We're like my full focus has to be there. I'm like every little input has to be timed perfectly. My whole attention is on the wing of the aircraft next to me Like there's no stressing about to dues or emails or tomorrow coming up, or whatever it is, I feel like there's very few places where you can be that present. And I kind of missed that like flow state feeling of just such high level of focus that you'd have flying formation or air refueling, you get that too, because you're trying to hold your jet as steady as possible, you know, you're literally touching another aircraft, and you your breathing would get shallow. I feel like my heart rate would actually slow down. And it was just such as cool level of focus. And I've heard climbers talk about that, like rock climbers regularly describe kind of that level of focus. But I think it's something that's hard to come by.
Andrew Vontz 40:43
Yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, most people, I mean, almost no one in the world is going to be able to do what you've done, like I was actually trying to describe to my kids, how, how truly exceptional what you've done is, and I have no idea, but like, what percent of human beings who set out to try to do what you do within aviation or within the military, actually can end up doing it. But such a tiny minut percentage of people will ever get to experience the things that you've described, which is part of why it's so incredibly remarkable. And now you have the rest of your life, right? And then it's like, how are you going to? You're not going to find the same thing. And that's something I'm really curious about. I know you've talked about it in other places, but you know, now what now what is the feeling that you, you seek to find? What comes I you know, there's a book, the title of witches after the ecstasy, the laundry, I think it's a Jack Kornfield book, but I love that title. Like you've had this super peak life experience, you've been the very tip of the spear, you've been in a position few humans in the entire history of humanity will ever experience. What brings you satisfaction now. And what do you want next?
Michelle Curran 42:01
I like that question. Because I get asked all the time, if I miss it, and I don't. Oddly enough, I think I miss little tiny pieces of it like that, that level of focus, or some of the beautiful things you can see from that bubble canopy like flying over the mountains and alpine lakes and sunrises and that kind of stuff. And then I miss, like the camaraderie, the really tight, high level of teamwork, but I don't miss flying upside down. I don't miss the G's. I don't miss it overall. And I think that's because I've found something else that I really, really do love doing. And I found that through flying for the Thunderbirds, and that was, you know, I was in a unique position where I had so many opportunities to inspire other people and have these little one off conversations and interactions with people, especially with little girls, but with people, both genders and all ages, where I could just see they walked away from these conversations, empowered to go chase down whatever their goal or their dream was. And like how cool of a spot to be in to be able to do that for people. And by the time I left the Thunderbirds, that was by far the most rewarding part of the job. For me, it wasn't the cool flying. And I kind of you know, brainstormed and thought about ways I could create a business can continue doing that. And that's where the keynote speaking, kind of came up. And I have a children's book that came out about six weeks ago about a little girl that wants to be a fighter pilot, you know, that's kept me tied to the younger audience. And it is still the most rewarding thing to get to share my story, along with all the struggles, the obstacles, the self doubt, the fear, all the things that people don't really associate with fighter pilots. But turns out, we're just regular people who worked really hard at one thing for a long time. And so I make it relatable. And I think for a lot of people, it kind of expands what they see as possible for themselves, when they when they hear that story. And they hear that vulnerability. And it's cathartic for me to share all those things. But it also is just so rewarding to see people go do things that they didn't think that they could do, and feel like I played just a small role in pushing them towards it.
Andrew Vontz 44:19
When you reflect on your career and what it took to do, what you were doing, and to do what you're doing now, which when I think about it at a macro level, some of the things you're describing, just baring your face in a book for 12 to 14 hours a day, going out doing the work doing all the flying, listening to mentors being in a position where you're getting, you know critiqued by your peers in real time after flights over and over and over again. There's something very dysregulated about that and the sense of that's an extraordinary level of effort. There's a total lack of balance. There probably wasn't room for anything else in your life. If, and a lot of people and you also talked about how there were times when you felt imposter syndrome, and you just had to, like, show up and do the work. And there is a lot of talk in culture and society now both about vulnerability, about balance, and I think that those are, it's great to be vulnerable. It's also a worthy thing to find balance. And how do you think about those concepts in relation to what you had to do to achieve what you did? Like? Could you have been a vulnerable and balanced person and have done what you did or not?
Michelle Curran 45:36
Yes, and no, I think I could have done better than I did, for sure, especially with the vulnerability piece, because I did that eventually, in a different fighter squadron, and it was great. Like I'm, I, you know, just started showing up as who I was, and sharing the things I love to do outside of work, and all that stuff with these people that I had all these stereotypes in my mind about turns out, they all had different things they love to and I found people that were similar and connected, and I'm still friends with them today. And I think that was really, you know, that the time I struggle with that was when I was very young, I was immature, right as you are in your early 20s. I felt like I had to do this whole bravado thing and prove myself as you often do when you're young in a new career field. And so I think, feeling like I could be vulnerable. And like, I could create a little bit of balance that came with like, some wisdom and some maturity. And I would have loved to have that sooner on and I saw some other people navigate it more successfully. There's some people that I really admired that were able to do that, you know, from the beginning, throughout their whole careers. And so I think it takes a unique person to do that. Probably more of us fall and in the camp that I did. But I think it is possible. But to do the things that we had to do at the level we did them. There are sacrifices, right? Like, the balance thing is tough you I mean, on the Thunderbirds, we're gone 240 days a year, for three years, so that there's not balanced there. When it comes to families. And like you're you miss every weekend for eight, nine months of the year, the whole summer. So you're missing all kinds of things in your kids lives you with your spouse, I think it's just kind of taking the time to recognize where you can create more space for that. And it's not going to be perfect. But being pretty intentional with making sure you're prioritizing when you can. And it's not going to always be as much as you would like. But I think the people around you, you know, if they're supportive, they're pretty willing to work with you and be pretty forgiving, and understanding of the schedule you're going through, if you do make them a priority when you're able to.
Andrew Vontz 47:52
And when you were gone 240 days a year, I know that some of those days would be traveling some of those days you'd be at an airshow. But typically what time would your day start and what time wondered. And
Michelle Curran 48:07
it varied a little bit. During training season where we would be at home, which sounds like the more chill time of the year, it's just not the case, we would fly about 10 times a week. And as you got proficient, every one of those flights was a full demonstration. And I was still working out right. So I would meet my friend who was our maintenance officer at the gym on base at 515 in the morning. So I'm waking up, you know, for something we would do like a CrossFit style workout. And then I would go fly the F 16 twice that day and get home after sunset. That was a grind. And then during show season, you're gone Mars, you're seeing your family last, but it's actually a more relaxed schedule for the pilots at that point. But you're spending a lot of time in the cockpit transiting from Las Vegas to whatever city this shows in and then show days, you know, you might not have an early start. But it's still pretty demanding because you would do meet and greets you do school visits, you do PR like cocktail dinner time events. And then you're also flying these air shows in the middle with high G's demanding on your body. You're doing that debrief that I mentioned every single time. So it varied some depending on where we were flying to what time the show was all of that. But usually the mornings weren't too early of a start. It was just the time that you did have to be at work was just high demand.
Andrew Vontz 49:37
Right? And as you were going through that experience in the back of your mind, or even consciously were you thinking about okay, here's some of the other things I'd like to pursue outside of the career that you've now built for yourself. Were there just life things that you felt like you wanted to go do once you were doing something else? Were there any big goals that you wanted to go after whether it was a mountaineering experience or a specific race, anything like that,
Michelle Curran 50:07
there were always things that I felt like I didn't have the time to do that I wanted to do, I wanted to train for another race, whether that was a marathon or like a trail altar, or whatever it was. Mountaineering stuff, I really got into it really quickly while stationed in Texas, and then once I got to the Thunderbirds, there was no time for it. So I did a bunch of stuff in a short amount of time. And then I didn't do anything for like years. And so you feel like you lose all the skills, and you're kind of having to start over with like, your knowledge base, and all of that. And the funny thing is that a lot of people have asked me about since I've left active duty and left the team, they're like, it looks like you're just as busy. Now, as you were with the Thunderbirds, and I'm not gone as much, I have not gone 200 plus days a year. But I am just as busy. Turns out being an entrepreneur is a very, very full time job. But the cool thing right now is that I do get control of my schedule. So if we have a family vacation or something like that, I can just block those dates off. So I feel like I have a lot more control, even if I am just as busy. And I know that I'm building something where I'm working towards a place where I will be able to have that balance long term. You know, a few years of grinding, doing this is a little bit easier to stomach because I know that I'm going to get to a spot with my business where I have full control of my schedule where I can take more time off, where I can, you know, pursue some of the hobbies that have been on the backburner for several years now. So I see kind of the reward at the end. And I also am just really, really loving what I'm doing. So it doesn't feel that bad. It feels a lot less stressful. I mean, I'm not risking my life every day. So that part's nice to have that off the table. You know, getting on a stage and speaking in front of 2000 people is a nightmare for a lot of people. And I get nervous beforehand, but it's all relative. I'm like, oh, what's the worst thing that could happen? I forget what I'm talking about like trip. Like, we'll just make a joke about that we'll move on with our lives. It's a lot lower repercussion than my previous occupation.
Andrew Vontz 52:11
Yeah, I can imagine. So is there anything specific that you're training for right now?
Michelle Curran 52:16
Right? Well, so the last year and a half has been a lot of trying to rehab my body. We didn't really even get into G forces. But
Andrew Vontz 52:27
let's talk about it. Let's talk about G forces. Tell me what does it do to a human? I have no idea.
Michelle Curran 52:31
A lot. Yeah, so I'll I'll dumb it down for just people who aren't super familiar with it, right? We're all at one G. Sitting right here today a force of gravity. So you weigh what you in your bathroom scale. And then, however many G's you're pulling, you're multiplying your body weight by that. So the F 16 can pull nine G's. So your average fighter pilot, they're going to feel like they weigh about 1500 pounds under under that force. And so if you've written rollercoasters, you pull about four G's, if you've done that Gravitron ride at the fair we get like stuck against the wall. I think that's about four G's. And you and I liked that ride as a kid, it was like so hard just to lift your arms off. Now imagine nine and you're, you're still flying an airplane, doing things under those forces. So there's a whole thing to talk about there about like just physical discomfort and still maintaining focus under that. Because I would do the max turn as the left solo, which is a full 360 degree turn, add up to nine G's as I got, as I was on the team longer and longer, I would fly it a little bit slower with a little bit less G just because I was like, it looks the same to the crowd. And this is not worth the stress on my body. But I would hit nine G's regularly during a flight. And then you have the physical like actual wear and tear, which is generally neck and back issues. And we were notorious for just ignoring them because we don't want to be pulled out of the cockpit if they actually find something wrong. So everyone's just like, Oh, my back hurts, my neck hurts. And then I'm gonna fly again tomorrow, and it'll be fine. So I did that as well. I missed a couple air shows. While I was on the Thunderbirds, because my back pain was so bad. I couldn't get off the floor without spasming. There was a period in 2019 My first year on the team, second half of the season where it was just like, my whole life was revolving around back pain. So I really empathize with people that have chronic pain now because it it sucked and it affected everything. But as I was leaving the military, of course, now is the time to go get X rays and MRIs and all the things done. And it's basically like, I go to the doctor and they're like, Oh, were you in a car accident. You have trauma to your T one. I was like no, never been in a car accident. They're like, Oh, well, it's very like here look at it's very visible here. And then they're like, Oh, you have your vertebrae look like the vertebrae of like a 65 year old like we can see like arthritis less wear and tear on them that we wouldn't see I'm 36. So this was when I was just turned 35. And I'm like, great. So there's all of that. So I have been trying to be very this is hard for me. I've been trying to be very forgiving with myself and spend a lot of time. Like, talking about peloton beyond the peloton, I will ride the peloton because it's no impact. And I've not been running much because it hurts a lot of things. I've been doing a ton of mobility. All of that is, you know, with the goal of longevity, but also to be able to eventually get back to endurance sports because I really do love them. And it's paying me to not be able to commit to a training plan. But I'm trying to keep my ego at bay. And you know, rehab back to a point where I can do those long term. But I'm not the I'm like the person that would show up to a CrossFit gym not having done CrossFit in like months, and then would insist on doing the RX weight, and would be like broken the next day. That's me. And I know that's me. So I battle that. So yeah, I wish I could be like I'm training for this race, but we're rehabbing right now.
Andrew Vontz 56:13
Was there an emphasis on getting plenty of sleep and recovery when you were in the Thunderbirds or not,
Michelle Curran 56:18
not as much as there should have been. There was you know, kind of the general like, make sure you're well rested, make sure you're hydrated. I know a lot of like the Special Operations units are taking that more seriously with like sleep trackers, athletic trainers, like supplements. The military in general is usually kind of behind on that stuff. And people were always shocked that the Thunderbirds did not have a lot of those resources. We had a flight doctor who was kind of like a family medicine doctor that was assigned to us. So he was great if you had a cold, or you know, you sprained your ankle or something. But we needed an athletic trainer, we needed a physical therapist that traveled with us all the time. We talked about getting or rings on my first year on the team, and actually tracking our sleep with all of the timezone changes we're constantly doing. But there was no funding for it. So it never happened. I were one on my own that I bought myself. I think they're generally behind on all of that stuff. And they're starting to realize is there's a lot of retention issues as people are leaving, like, I mean, I left because not just because of this, but one of the reasons was I was sick of the physical demand and wear and tear and I wanted to be able to do the hobbies that I mentioned when I'm you know, in my 40s and that was more important to me than flying the jet for seven more years until I got to 20 So I guess that's a long answer your question but not as much as there should have been
Andrew Vontz 57:47
is it something that you prioritize now I mean, your sounds like you're on the road a lot again.
Michelle Curran 57:53
I know I for sure prioritize it I you know, even when I'm this is true well with the Thunderbirds as well, like unique opportunities will pop up in the evenings, where you get invited to some really cool stuff or great restaurants or people want to treat you when you're the keynote speaker, they want to treat you when you're the Thunderbirds come into town for an air show. I say no to that stuff as much as I can. Which is harder now. Because the paying clients for speaking engagements. It's more of like, I feel like I owe that to them. But I always will take the option of just ordering something healthy that I know I can control that I'm eating to some extent. And then going to bed early and just staying in my hotel room and staying in my routine, getting a workout in and even if that's in the hotel gym, in the morning. I just feel a lot. My resilience is a lot better when I can regulate that stuff as much as possible even when I'm on the road.
Andrew Vontz 58:48
And when you get your body to the point where you want it to be to be able to do endurance sports again. Do you have something in mind that you really are itching to do?
Michelle Curran 58:59
Yeah, a couple of things. I just dabbled in trail running while I was stationed in Texas. And now I live in Vegas, and there's some like really cool stuff nearby. So I would love to be able to get into that more. And then there's also great mountain biking here too. And I've gotten a bike like right before I joined the Thunderbirds. And then once I was on the team, we don't have any backup pilots. So they were like, you can not get hurt. Like you can not hurt yourself doing a hobby some it was kind of at the discretion of the squadron commander but some of them would actually put official rules in place where the pilots were not allowed to do a whole list of activities like skiing, snowboarding, mountain biking, whatever it was because there's a high risk of even a twisted ankle is going to take you out of the cockpit or a sprained wrist is a huge deal. And so that's been something I like want to get into but I know especially when you're learning, especially with like the rocky trails around Vegas, there's a pretty good chance of some solid wipeouts Um, and so it just wasn't something I could get into. And now I'm, you know, I shy away from hurting myself just because I'm trying to fix a lot of things currently. But that's for sure on the list as well.
Andrew Vontz 1:00:13
Yeah, you've got bootleg Canyon, just down the road in Boulder. Boulder says a Boulder City.
Michelle Curran 1:00:18
There's some, like stuff out by Blue Diamond. There's just there's great endurance sports around Vegas. It's really such a hub for outdoor activities, which a lot of people don't associate it with. And it's been kind of a bummer to not take advantage of those as much as I would like to.
Andrew Vontz 1:00:34
Yeah, it is. We've got Red Rock Canyon as well. Right? It's like it's such an incredible spot for climbing mountain biking. should get. Yeah, head to Vegas, everyone. So it's the spot you should be on if you want to go do outdoor activities, but not right now. That's awesome. Yep. But not right now. We're you'll you'll roast. It's not gonna go well, unless you got one of those suits from the movie dune and you can upcycle your urine, then you're in good shape. Yeah, fantastic. So I mean, outside of so outside of sports, what you're doing with the rest of your career? What else are you into? Do you have other hobbies?
Michelle Curran 1:01:08
Yeah, so I think like, generally, fitness, which I feel like people are like, oh, like lifting weights is not a sport. I just like to stay strong and fit. Yeah, like, I do that on a regular basis, despite not being able to do endurance sports, or like traditional sports. Right now. My husband and I both love just to get outdoors in any shape, or form, whether that's just hiking, which is funny, because when I was still running a lot doing mountaineering, I was I was like, Oh, the hikers, like they're in the way. And now I'm like, I'm like, dammit. I won't give me some trekking poles. But yeah, just like any form of getting out and, and we have a 10 year old. So I have a 10 year old stepson. So trying to do stuff with him. He's a big Little League player. And so my priorities have shifted so much, with just trying to rehab my body, running a business, having a kid that's in he's also in jujitsu, so multiple sports and trying to support that. I'm really hoping to get back to a spot where I can, you know, dedicate some more time to my hobbies. Because when you ask me that, I'm like, Well, you know, I, I write a lot for my business. And I speak to a lot of people on stages, and I'm writing a book and got a lot of balls in the air. But I would like to do some more outdoor adventuring.
Andrew Vontz 1:02:30
And having done storytelling in so many different formats, now you've got the children's book, you're now working on your autobiography, and then everything that you're doing with keynote speaking, what have you found you enjoy about storytelling? And how is that using your brain? Is it the using it the same way you'd been using it previously? Are there new and different things about it that you love?
Michelle Curran 1:02:51
There's a lot of differences, I think it's given me a lot of perspective on things that I didn't take the time to reflect on while I was in the thick of it. Especially the first few months of like writing my keynote and giving it and trying out a lot of different stories and content on social media and seeing how those were received. It was cathartic for me to share all that stuff, because you don't just talk about that stuff, generally, in your fighter squadron, right? Like, you don't sit down with your peers. And you're like, Man, I really felt like an imposter at this time. And this happened. And a lot of your stories are just normal to that group of people. It's like, oh, yeah, cool. Why are you even telling me about this bird strike, we've all had birds. But you take that and you present it to your average person. And to them it seems exceptional. And then I think what's really powerful is to pair that with the vulnerability of struggle, and doubt and fear. And it just makes it seem so relatable. And coming from a source where you know, especially kids, they put the Thunderbirds on a pedestal like superheroes, right? It's like saying you want to be a Thunderbird pilot, when you grew up is like saying you want to be Superman when you grew up. And so to get down to their level, and like relate to them on their fears, and their doubts, is just so powerful. And so it's kind of twofold. It's been cathartic for me, I think it's made me a better person, a more empathetic person. I think my EQ has gotten better, like a lot has come from it. And then I think it's just so powerful. My favorite part of it is when I get to see the reaction from other people, and I actually, people will tear up, or people will come up afterwards and share their personal stories and how they felt like I'd written my presentation just to talk to them. And that's just so rewarding. It's, it's like that little dopamine hit you get when you give someone a gift they really love. I get to do that for a living and it's, it's I I feel honored, honestly, and I'm really grateful to be in this position.
Andrew Vontz 1:04:55
That's amazing. And I'm actually I am one of those kids who grew up seeing the Thunderbirds. I grew We're up in Kansas City, Missouri. We had Richards give our Air Force base there, which is since it closed a long time ago, but I probably saw the Thunderbirds probably like seven or eight times, I would guess when I was a really little kid. It definitely inspired me, in me a sense of awe. And I'd never, never really thought I'd end up talking to a Thunderbird lead pilot, and here I am today. So, you know, I'm one of those kids. So thanks for taking time to chat. Michelle, this has been awesome. And I'm really looking forward to your book coming out whenever it's going to drop and thanks for being here.
Michelle Curran 1:05:36
Yeah, absolutely. It's been a pleasure. And you did ask a bunch of questions I haven't been asked before so I really appreciate that.