Tobin Ortenblad on Building a Career in the Changing Field of Gravel Racing
American pro cycling is changing. As riders adjust to year round competitions in multiple disciplines, Tobin Ortenblad has done more than just keep up. Tobin, who has raced for Santa Cruz Bicycles since 2016, is a versatile athlete who started strong in cyclocross and now races mountain bike and gravel, too.
Andrew Vontz sits down with Tobin to talk about how cyclocross has changed, why strength training is important to cyclists, and the truth about mustache trends in the pro racing gravel field. Plus, Tobin shares his theories on why more cyclists are moving toward gravel racing.
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Tobin is now a member of Santa Cruz’s in-house endurance team, htSQD, with Keegan Swenson and Alexis Skarda. He has over a dozen professional UCI Cyclocross wins under his belt, along with a Cyclocross National Championship title. This year he joins the best cyclists in the country to compete in the Life Time Grand Prix, featuring seven iconic races on varying terrain.
You can find Tobin on Instagram @mctubbbin and read more about him in the show notes.
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Choose the Hard Way is a podcast where guests share stories about how hard things build stronger humans. Sign up for the newsletter to get the story behind these stories updates and more. If you’d like to suggest a guest or say hello, DM @hardwaypod on social or send an email to choosethehardway@gmail.com.
Host Andrew Vontz has spent more than 25 years telling and shaping the stories of the world’s top performers, brands and businesses. He has held executive and senior leadership roles at the social network for athletes Strava and the human performance company TRX. His byline has appeared in outlets like Rolling Stone, Outside magazine, The Los Angeles Times and more.
Today he advises and consults with businesses and nonprofits on high-impact storytelling strategies and coaches leaders to become high-performance communicators. Find him on LinkedIn or reach out to choosethehardway@gmail.com
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Tobin Ortenblad 5:17
So yeah, I mean, gravel is obviously seem like a very quick rise to like the main, the most prevalent professional racing in the United States, I'd say. I mean, we still have we still have professional road mountain bike, cyclocross, we still have all of that. But I think that gravel has the most. What's the word I guess just got the most eyes on, it's got the most press like I, I personally cut my teeth racing cross and made a name for myself racing cross. And I love cross, I still think it's the coolest, most fundraising. But at the same time, I think that, you know, you need to adapt and evolve what's happening in the racing scene. And right now, that is gravel. And I think to kind of be stubborn as like a one discipline racer, and just be like, I'm only a cross racer, I'm only a World Cup mountain bike racer. I mean, you can't do that if you are the absolute best, maybe. But if you're not like, if you're just a maybe a podium contender, like, I don't know how you can make a living and stay relevant. by just doing that, and gravel is a thing that has come up. And it's got a ton of support. And it's super fun. So I think that you kind of have to like, embrace it, and do it. And it's actually a good time. So like you said, there's a bunch of different riders coming in from a bunch of different disciplines. And that's why these gravel races are so dynamic, like some races are really fitness oriented, some are really technical, some are both, and you're seeing Keegan when all of them. But everyone else, you know, kind of beyond that there's a bit of a shuffle. And you're seeing guys that are like maybe not as fit but can drive the bike really well poll results on a more technical course, you're seeing the guys that are just super horsepower, and not a lot of like technical skill. Poll results at races are less technical. So you have a culmination of riders from all over the place coming together and doing these races. And I think that is why they're interesting.
Andrew Vontz 7:38
Before you were a bike racer, what were you into?
Tobin Ortenblad 7:43
Ha man, like I did all the sports, you know, like baseball, soccer. What else I always rode my bike. But I didn't really think of racing as like, I didn't just think I didn't think much of it. But I always rode I liked that the most when I had to go to like baseball practice, I would have preferred to have stayed home and bid on my bike. Yeah, so soccer. The last team I was on, I got kicked off. I got in a fight at practice that was in like, maybe like middle school, early middle school, maybe late elementary. And then in middle school, I was on my last baseball team, which was like graduating from Little League to what's called Pony League. Played that I was friends with the kids whose dads were like, running the teams and stuff. So I ended up on the best team, which was probably my downfall. Like I ended up on the best team knocks I was that good because I was friends with those guys. And being on the best team into surrounded by the best players, which means my mediocre skills didn't give me much playing time. And I felt like I was always going to these games just sitting on the bench and I would have preferred to have not been there. And I told my dad, I didn't want to do it. And he's like, that's fine. But you have to tell if that's something you want. You have to tell the coaches that you don't want to do any more like I'm not going to quit for you. And so yeah, I did, I just like stop halfway through and then just rode my bike. And then right around eighth grade, we have a high school racing series in California called Nika a lot of states have it now. The NorCal League, I knew there was a bike racing league in high school, and that would obviously start in ninth grade. But in eighth grade, I realized that I could get out of PE and middle school and I could get out of class early to ride with the high school mountain bike team. And I thought that that would just be a continuation of what I did for fun and A's which was like jumping and downhill riding. I showed up to the first day of practice and they're doing hill repeats, which was like a total backfire on my plans because hill repeats aren't easy and they're not fun. But I was also really competitive. So I didn't want to you know, not when the hill repeats. And then next thing I know you know, I'm like wearing spandex and shaving my legs. eggs in racing cross country and getting out of school early in eighth grade to do it. And then once I was properly in high school, I did all the high school races because as an eighth grader, I wasn't allowed to do the high school series yet.
Andrew Vontz 10:15
When did you have a sense that you might be good racing bikes?
Tobin Ortenblad 10:20
Um, hard to say. I mean, I feel like in at least in the Cross Country series, I knew I was decent in high school, because I'd be you know, top five at these races. And I mean, when you're a high school, and you're getting top five with these NorCal races you I mean, man, I just feel like I was so cocky like I thought it was so good being like a top five NorCal rider. And so I guess I thought I was good, then whether that was warranted or not, is a whole different story. But then I started racing cross and I think ninth grade, and felt like I was doing well locally there. One day I won the junior race and then the B's race. And I'd say about ninth 10th grade, I felt like I was pretty good at cross country and cyclocross, but better at cross than right around junior year of high school, I got on Cal giant specialized, which was the big team in the United States, which was based nearby Santa Cruz. And then I was starting to perform at a national level. And I knew that at that point, I was probably, you know, had something going for me talent or poor formance wise. So midway through high school, I think you could say those, you could say my thoughts were warranted there with performance on the national level. But, you know, thinking you're good in high school, because you're performing in California is a small pond, I guess,
Andrew Vontz 11:51
what year would this have been that you got on the Cal giant team,
Tobin Ortenblad 11:56
Cal Giant was I graduate high school in 2013 2012, would have been junior year. All through freshman year, I knew that Cal Giant was a team in the area, because I knew people that were on it or affiliated with it. And I would just, you know, whenever I got a chance to talk to the team manager, I'd send him you know, the local newspaper article that mentioned my name at array. So I would just email and like, I was relentless. The guy probably thought, you know, I was super annoying. But event eventually. I think in sophomore junior year, I built bikes at specialized one summer, and then specialized gave me a frame for my work. And then Cal giant gave me the parts to build it. And then I continued to do well, locally. And then it was I vividly remember, junior year of high school in 2012. I was sitting in English class and I just got a ticket in my email, a plane ticket to go to Louisville, Kentucky to race the US Grand Prix of cyclocross. And like, I don't even talk to my parents about it. I've just been talking to the team manager. And he's like, Okay, well, like, here's a ticket, let's go. And I think I was second in third at that race. And then after that, I was pretty much fully supported on the team.
Andrew Vontz 13:18
Who was on Cal giant at that time? Are we talking like Henry Kramer? Like, who are the Cal giant stars at that moment in time?
Tobin Ortenblad 13:28
So at that moment, I mean, so we had like Henry Kramer and Gannon mile were like the Masters guys, kind of like, I guess, like, even like mentors, in a way. Justin Robinson was another big one who is local in Santa Cruz. And then as far as like, the the A team, like the professional racers was Cody Kaiser, who stories is cross this other guy Nick way Hall, who was kind of the year I was coming in, he was going out. So I think that he left a vacancy that I was he left the vacancy at the beginning of the season that I was ready to fill. And you know, the team had already probably budgeted for having him there. So once he was kind of phasing out, I was able to come in. So yeah, Cody Kaiser Meredith Miller. We're big. And then I think the next year, we signed Yannick Ackman, and maybe his brother, Robin Ekman, who were on like the LIVESTRONG road team at the time, so yeah, they came on. And then I think 2014 was my first year out of high school that year was Logan Owen, Cody, Kaiser, l. Anderson, Meredith Miller and myself and it was a five person cross team. And yeah, that was kind of our program for until the team merged. Yeah, the team didn't fold it didn't just disappear. It merged with the Hoggins permanent action in 2015. But yeah, that was that was our lineup until basically the end of the cross program
Andrew Vontz 15:04
and what happened with cyclocross during that period of time, because that was really that was kind of an apex period of time for crossing the United States. So you can, can you describe what the scene was like? What were the races? Like? What was the community like?
Tobin Ortenblad 15:21
Yeah, um, yeah, I mean, God Cross had such a. Yeah, that was, I guess, you know, an apex time with the scene really, because when I came in, there was still the USGP of cyclocross, which was the United States Grand Prix, which was a cohesive series from I forget all the races that were in it. But it was a national series with big prize money. There was a whole shot pretty much every race, it was like 500 bucks to get to the corner first, like legit money, and you had big pros still, you know, you had Ryan Cerbone, you had Jeremy powers, you had Tim Johnson, Jamie Driscoll, you had, I don't know the top five guys were making a legitimate living doing it. And then there was a bit of a changing of the guard, those guys were starting to retire. And before they retired, the the USGP disappeared, like, that was a series that had been going strong for a long time, and had like a guaranteed prize money at these races. And so when the USGP disappeared, and I think it was 2012 2013 was the last season. That was a big blow, for sure. And then on top of that, now, the Jeremy powers and the turbos and the Tim Johnson's are also retiring at about that time, so you lost some big names and big personalities, and you lost a big series. And it left a void of recognized professionals, and a void of like, these big races. And so as far as races, go, like independent promoters tried to fill the shoes of these races. And they did I think for a while, but without that, you know, without the big series organization, and without those big names, it was hard to maybe just keep the sponsor dollars involved in it. Yeah, I mean, I wish I could pinpoint it. But I think it's a combination of all those things.
Andrew Vontz 17:29
Because it used to be the case that during cyclocross season, for probably 1520 race days a year, you would have a race every Saturday and Sunday for three or four months. Just a NorCal.
Tobin Ortenblad 17:43
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And then there's the NorCal. The, you know, Northern California scene for those that don't know, was also humongous. Yeah. So there's the national series. And then in California as well. I mean, there was like, Yeah, big race, every single weekend, Saturday, Sunday race. And we had the series called The barrier, super prestige, which had decent prize money had humongous fields. And then same thing that guy was, I think all this timing of people retiring, getting out of it happened at once, you know, and it just left a void in a vacuum that didn't get filled in the same either professional manner that was already there or just didn't get filled period. And it just that hole was never filled properly. Because yeah, like you're saying in Northern California, during cross season, I'm I mean, I still feel grateful. I can go race most weekends at home, but it's not the same. You know, 80 person, elite men feels that their work because like, maybe 80 is a bit of an overstatement. But it could be 50 to 80 that B's field would be at the C's feel to be 60. The Women's fields, like the women's elite fields were like 30, which is huge. Like now there's 10 Maybe like, there were so many people at these races. And these people didn't stop racing their bikes, but I don't know why. I don't know. I don't know why the crossing fell out.
Andrew Vontz 19:17
Do you have a theory?
Tobin Ortenblad 19:22
Man, I mean, I have a theory with like, the last couple years more, which is industry support. I think fewer companies are making like dedicated cross bikes. Because there was a while where like, I guess focus would be the first company like Jeremy Powers was on focus bikes and they always made, you know, a really good cross bike with dedicated cross geometry, cross specific design, right things that are good for being on the motocross course, the bikes turn fast, they're quick handling like taking this bike and hauling ass down a fire road is Like it's not a gravel bike, it's kind of squirrely, when you're going that fast, and I think what happened was like maybe these these companies started to see this gravel thing kind of emerge and how there was so much turnout there because cyclocross is racing. But most of these early gravel events were not called gravel races, they're called gravel rides. And so, you know, if you're not a bike racer, you're like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna go to this gravel ride. And there's eight stations all along the 100 mile route. And I can drink a beer and I can chill with my friends. And I don't have to feel intimidated by the word racing. And so I think that a lot of people started going to those events, the industry started to see this. And they started kind of like morphing these cross bikes into bikes that could fit bigger tires, and, you know, hold more water bottles. And I think that we saw probably just a positive trend in that gravel riding. And the bikes started to change to that, and cross was seeing like a stagnation or a decline. And they're just putting less r&d dollars into making a like, dedicated cross bike and kind of putting more into like, maybe making a cross bike that could fit bigger tires, and then a cross bike with a lower bottom bracket than a cross bike that was longer. And then all of a sudden, it's like, gravel bike, you know, so I think the industry lost a bit of interest, and they saw a different growing market. And that's kind of where we're at right now.
Andrew Vontz 21:40
How did that feel as a professional athlete and professional athlete who you were primarily focused on cyclocross for a while? When did you have a sense of okay, this is moving in a different direction? And what adjustments did you have to make, both as a business person and as an athlete?
Tobin Ortenblad 22:00
Yeah, um, so after Cal giant folded in 2015, didn't fold merged folds, not a great works. That's not what happened. I was left to my own devices to race basically, college was like, Hey, you like we're merging with this road team, and you're not even at u 23. Next year anyways, so like, you're going to be off the program anyways. And I understood that. And at the same time, Santa Cruz bikes, which is in my hometown, 10 minutes away from my house, also made a carbon stigmata that year. And they actually were talking to me when I was on college I had, but they had a cyclocross bike. And this is in 2015 16. So this bike was a legit cross bike. And I was able to basically take my national title I had in 2015, and the 23 category, asked for some support from Santa Cruz, and I got it. And then my coach at the time, Chris McGovern was very like, like, DIY man, you can do this, like, you got to find money here, here. And here. And this is kind of how you do it. And yeah, I did, I found some money. And, you know, I think I was doing like, I was probably like, I don't know, grossing, like 17 grand. And, you know, it's doing the cross season, like, pretty legit on like, 12 grand, and paying Chris a day rate and flying us and rental cars and all that. And yeah, and I was doing all that I found the money. And that was hard, because you know, I'm doing this, I'm trying to run this little team, make sure everyone has what they need. And at the same time, like, be proving to my mom, that like, I can make money doing this because I was also going I was also going to school in the in the spring, which I'd always missed the first week of for cyclocross World Champs. So I was doing all that. And I did it that way for a long time kind of putting together my own budget paying a mechanic this and that. And then, let's see, I mean, I did it up until like COVID, basically. And then I started working with a different coach right at the beginning of COVID just coincidental timing. And, you know, COVID started in February, March, we saw a cross country and road races start getting canceled, and then like, the cross season will still be there and five, six months, and then that got canceled. And then our marketing boss at Santa Cruz, like I say, boss, his name's Jordan. He doesn't really like that term, but he's, he's the marketing guy. And he does the sports marketing and he does the athletes and the teams he used to race road and had a little bit more like endurance background focus, or I shouldn't say focus, but he knew You the endurance seem better maybe than the previous guy did. And he was kind of keen on putting together an endurance program for Santa Cruz. And it was in the middle of COVID. And he knew that Keegan was in the area and Santa Cruz, he's like, Do you Do you think that like maybe Keegan would want to have a meeting, and maybe see about racing for Santa Cruz. And I was like, I don't know, Keegan that well, but like, I'd know him well enough to maybe set up a meeting. And that wasn't the only one who made this happen. But Keegan met with Jordan. And eventually, you know, the stars align there. And Keegan was on the Santa Cruz program. And that was in I guess, 2020 2021. And Keegan is a big name. And he brought a little bit more support to like the endurance side of Santa Cruz. Because previously, Santa Cruz was pretty heavy in like gravity. Racing, so enduro and downhill. And once Keegan was on Keegan, kind of wanted to do these big like fk T attempts and big endurance stuff, and just big, grueling hard events. And or just trials like an FK t is not a race, you just go out and try to go as fast as you can on something and tell people how fast you did it. And so once Keegan was doing that, like, I was just tagging along, I'm like, Yeah, dude, that sounds cool. Like, let's do this, let's do that. Blah, blah, blah. And started seeing how big these events were. And I was going to those with Keegan. And then, you know, at the same time Cross was seeing that still is I think it's plateaued at a lower point. But I was like, I'm fairly decent at racing my bike off road and these other disciplines. So I can do more than just cyclocross. And I have the support to do more than just cyclocross, because Santa Cruz has this new program, the hit squad. And I think I just got really lucky with Keegan being there and getting the support because Keegan was more around, because otherwise, I probably wouldn't have got the support to be a gravel racer, or like a cross country guy was just kind of a cyclocross guy. So I think it was good timing. And for me, like, I still get to race cross. So it's not like I'm abandoning the thing I love. I'm just doing more other racing in the summertime. And yeah, I just feel really lucky to have that support. So I'm bummed that cross isn't what it was. But at the same time, like I said, being kind of business minded, I do have to treat this like a business because I don't have a job. I'm a professional, I don't have a normal job, a professional bike racer. So I feel like you have to there was a point in my life where I felt like my trajectory as a athlete had to be going at least parallel to my trajectory is becoming an adult. And, you know, that means making a little bit more money. And yeah, growing up a bit, right, because you do see a lot of people that are like, just going all in on cycling, and maybe making just just scrapping by and I'm like, man, like, Do you have any money, and like a retirement account, or like, I don't know, I just don't when I'm done bike racing, I don't want to be hung out to dry and have nothing. I gotta be trying to, you know, make a life for myself after being a bike racer. And this is what enables me to do that. And, you know, have an amazing time racing right now.
Andrew Vontz 28:37
Yeah, that's sounds like a positive aspiration to build a life that will be there after you finish as a professional racer. And as you mentioned, you kind of had a couple of these pivotal moments where there was the transition from Cal giant getting absorbed into merging with another team. And then when COVID hit all the races were shut down. So during those two periods of time, you made some adjustments. How did how did it feel to have kind of everything the world is you knew it kind of got the rug pulled out from underneath you? So how did you navigate that? Did you stay calm? Did you freak out? Did you think about doing something else for a living at all?
Tobin Ortenblad 29:21
I was like, let's say right when COVID I guess let's talk COVID time I you know, I was lucky enough that like I wasn't I don't really know if anyone just was hung out to dry and companies were like, we're not paying any more like there goes your contract. You're not racing. So we hire you to race so you don't get paid or whatever. Santa Cruz doesn't burn their athletes like that period. Like if you're if you're on with Santa Cruz, they're going to support you through good and bad and so were you. I was supported through the bad being COVID but at the same Time I also, like I said, started working with a new coach coincidentally right around that same time. And when you start working with a new coach, you're like, super keen on showing your new coach your ability to train and, you know, do their workouts. And I don't know, perform. So I think starting to work with Dave, my current coach, at the beginning of COVID, was motivating, because he would just throw workouts at me day after day after day. And at the same time, I think that racing, I don't know what COVID is, I don't know how long it's gonna last. I think that there's a good chance maybe there's a race in three weeks, and I gotta be prepared. So it was a nice break that I got to like, stay home and work on my Subaru build a project car and stuff and not have to worry about necessarily like, jumping on a plane. But at the same time, I also was able to go train every day and be motivated by my new coach to go do these workouts? And yeah, I mean, the only difference was, like I said, I just wasn't traveling, and I was spending more time on the patio drinking beer with my family. And, yeah, I mean, I had it easy like it was, I'm fortunate I had it easy because not a lot of people did, I was continuing to get my support from the brands that I wrote for. And I was motivated by my new coach to continue training and maybe a little bit of self ignorance thinking that there was going to be a bike race in a month. And that was not the case. So I was Yeah, I was able to just completely stay calm and keep riding.
Andrew Vontz 31:43
And Tobin, when he made the decision to begin working with a new coach, which is a big shift for a professional athlete, and specifically in endurance sports. Of course, all the effort that you put in is critical. Having a training program you believe in and using methodologies that you believe will be the most effective for you is of equal importance. So how did you go about finding someone who was the right fit for you? And when did you know it was time to work with someone new and do something different?
Tobin Ortenblad 32:13
That's yeah, that's a good question. Um, Chris McGovern was my last coach. And he and I worked together for like, seven years. And I mean, Chris is responsible for whatever work ethic I have, like Chris really drilled that into me because I was working with him through high school. And, you know, I think a young athlete does need a coach, that's kind of a hard ass to make sure they learn how to, you know, execute their workouts and in realize that, like, it takes hard work, it's not easy. So he and I worked together for about seven years. And then, let's see, read around before COVID. So COVID, was it February 2020, about for COVID. I think the 2019, the fall of 2019. Chris was my coach and mechanic. And I think we were just like butting heads a little more than we normally would. We're also good friends. So you know, you just have those, you know, conflicting moments, I guess, with your friends and your coaches and and that was fall of 2019. And then we run into the new year, and I started working with a gym coach. And he lived in Salt Lake City's name's art. I flew out to Salt Lake City to visit art and go over some training stuff and whatnot. And I was just talking to art. I was like, I don't know this and that I'm feeling this way and feeling that way. And a new coach was like this really scary thing. But I was like, maybe it's time to try some other stuff. And art has a gym, he uses an upstairs a cycling studio. And this guy walked in and just ran up to the cycling studio shares the same entrance and then arts like that guy is Dave like Dave is a he's a cycling coach. And I was like, Cool. And then Dave did something quick and laughed. And then I said art was like, you know, like, do you want to meet with Dave like, I could call me we go get coffee and he called Dave and then Dave was down and we just drove down the road and had coffee together. And I was just talking to Dave about my training and what I'd like to do and some maybe things I wasn't currently digging and he just basically I mean, he didn't do anything. He didn't say anything fake but everything that he said, I was like, I just like this philosophy. I like what his vibe is and I was like you know what, dude? Like let's let's do it like I got nothing to lose. Let's give it a shot. And then yeah, I had to then call my you know, Chris, who's like my good friend and seven year long coach and Have the hard conversation. And I remember just like sitting outside on the porch at my house, like kind of just in tears like being like, Hey, man, like I don't, it's nothing personal. But like, I got to take this step and try something new. And I remember that, you know, you basically coaches or like a monthly, like you pay a coach monthly or something. And Coach, Chris was working for a coaching company. And it was like, the last day of the month, and I just been putting off and I'm like, Dude, you gotta call him today, or like, you're basically locked in for another month. And I just pushed it off for so long. And he even knew to and I call on him, he's like, Yeah, I figured this is maybe the last day because of the last day of the month, everything but yeah, I've been working with Dave now for about three years. And yeah, it's, it's been good. You know, like, I see myself evolving as an athlete with Dave, like, especially trending more towards, like a big endurance engine. And, yeah, it's, I don't know, as long as like, you know, as long as I'm enjoying my training, and everything's, he's down with what I'm doing. And I'm done with what he's doing. Like I see it going for a long time.
Andrew Vontz 36:15
It's definitely tough to pick up the phone and make that call to a coach you've been working with. I mean, certainly more so for a professional athlete, but also any amateur athlete, I'm sure, who's made that call and had their training peaks account, go back to the free version for a short period of time before they're back with another coach, right? That's right. It's like it's a weird feeling.
Tobin Ortenblad 36:40
And break something with a partner. You know, it's like a break.
Andrew Vontz 36:45
It's a very personal thing. They know you really well.
Tobin Ortenblad 36:48
Yeah, they do. And it's Yeah, I mean, it sounds like you've maybe experienced that. It's like, it's like a breakup and you just gotta rip the band aid off. And the only differences is probably no emotional, you know, trauma or whatever, you're not gonna run into the old coach, coach and someone new and just be like, all sad.
Andrew Vontz 37:08
I mean, you might, they might be coaching someone who's kicking your ass, potentially, but hopefully,
Tobin Ortenblad 37:13
totally. Yeah, I do. Like, there's Carrie Warner is coached by my old coach Chris. And, you know, Carrie, like, pretty much beat me in every cross race this year. And I'm like, yeah, like, I just want to beat carry. But yeah, it's it's funny like that. We're all competitive. And, you know, it's all it's, that's why we race. We're competitive. We want to beat each other.
Andrew Vontz 37:35
It's all part of the game. And you mentioned so you're out in Utah, meeting with your strength. Coach, can you talk a little bit about? What do you do from a strength point of view? Because I think if people don't have a deep knowledge of the training that cyclists do, they might not understand that. Strength training plays an important part in it as well. So whose art What were you doing with them? And what do you do for strength training to complement your other training these days?
Tobin Ortenblad 38:02
Yeah. So art O'Connor is his name. He's based in Salt Lake his, his thing is, woo car fit W U K, AR wake up, kick ass repeat. And he is my gym coach. I got linked up with him through Keegan, he was Keegan's gym coach for a long time before I started working with him. And yeah, I mean, site. Strength training with cycling, I think is kind of it feels like this mysterious thing to a lot of cyclists. But it's really not. I mean, if you're stronger, it's never a bad thing to be stronger. You know, whether that enables you to make more power on the bike or enables you to crash harder without getting hurt. You know, it's unfortunate, but it happens. And having more muscle on your body is never a bad thing. So as far as our gym sessions, we're doing a lot of core work, obviously. And then, you know, like a Olympic lifts. So deadlifts are big ones. Squats, step ups Romanian split squats. Leg, glute, lower back anything in there. And yeah, I mean, we're just looking to do this to gain a bit of strength. And we're doing this twice a week. So I usually like to do it Tuesday, Thursday at home. Sometimes if I don't do three or if I'm not racing, I'll do a Tuesday Friday session. And I go to the gym before I train so I get up, have a quick little breakfast head to the gym. They're not terribly long workouts 45 minutes to an hour that you know, that's getting there. That's warming up that's you know, doing your rounds. And yeah, I mean, I really enjoy it because it's something different. And as a cyclist we spend a lot of time out on the roads alone, because you're doing specific work. So it's not like, I get to be like, talking to my friends at home being like, hey, yeah, you want to ride together, but also like, maybe just sit on and shut up because like, I got to do some work. You don't I mean, it's like, you just go train on your own, and you cherish those rides, where you just get an open, big chunk of riding, because I do I ride with my friends. And it's just like, my favorite thing to do. But when you're doing a workout, it's just, you're doing your work. So I like the gym, because I'm there and I'm doing my work. And so is everybody else in it feels social, even though everyone's focused during their own thing, like, you get some social stimulation by everyone else, they're doing their thing. And you know, you start to make friends with other people that are there and, you know, give each other a fist bump when you're walking by doing a set, whatever. And I do I really enjoy that part of the gym. And, you know, at the same time to like be lifting weights. So you do it for a couple of weeks, and you're you noticeably feel better, and you look better, you look stronger. It's, it's cool. It doesn't take that much time to notice with a bit of consistency. I noticed the days that I go to a good gym session that I go train on my bike later that like I'm engaged. My muscles have already been doing that work, like things are firing nicely, and I like to hit the gym. Before I train. Worst case scenario, you're feeling a bit dull from some big heavier day, but it never is getting in the way of my cycling my bike workout later in the day.
Andrew Vontz 41:41
And when you're at the gym, do you ever jump in and just spot a buddy on the benchpress?
Tobin Ortenblad 41:47
No, they're like, Dude, I see your arms. Like, I'll find someone else to spot me.
Andrew Vontz 41:54
Yeah, he just spotted you probably you don't go to the pro cyclist in the gym.
Tobin Ortenblad 41:59
Yeah. And the gym is interesting too. Because like, I go to this gym in Santa Cruz called Santa Cruz power fitness and like, it's a powerlifting gym. Like, there's a lot of big people and they're just huge. And then there's also a few athletes and you can tell like who the power lifters are in the athletes just purely based on physique. It's, it's cool. I mean, it's cool community because like a couple guys there that there's a couple guys that used to race bikes. And they one day my bike was in the gym and they recognized my name on the top tube and now we're friends and they are like they don't race anymore. But they're they watch all the racing still and we get to talk about bikes and then I can ask them about weightlifting and this and that. And yeah, I don't know. It's just a cool it's cool environment.
Andrew Vontz 42:49
And Tobin, increasingly there's some really interesting content being made around gravel racing in particular with BW our Arizona. Did you mention you just race recently, there's really pretty awesome coverage through Instagram stories. I know that I and a lot of friends who are fans of the sport were watching I think it was unrolled unlimited was an Instagram handle had really cool coverage. And then of course, there's the call of a lifetime YouTube series. And I'm curious as an athlete, how do you feel about the call of a lifetime series? In what reaction? Have you seen to that? What is it doing for the sport?
Tobin Ortenblad 43:30
Yeah, so the call the lifetime series. I'm not gonna lie, I wasn't in life. Well, that's not the night not live. I wasn't in lifetime last year, I did a couple of those races where I performed well enough to even be relevant in that video, even though my name wasn't mentioned since I wasn't in the series. So I'm not gonna lie, didn't watch all of them. I've watched about half of them. And I mean, they're done incredibly well, which is important. They do a good job of covering the race, they do a good job of showing the athletes and then they do a good job of developing some narrative around these races and being like this athlete as his personality. Yeah. And growing personalities, because that's what we need in this sport. And so what I'm seeing and I mean, Keegan, I've talked about it too. We're seeing like outside people starting to watch these that aren't cyclist and find them engaging, which is crucial for our sport. I mean, if we can pull in non endemic viewers, non endemic sponsors, that's, that's what enables these big sports in our country to be big sports, you know, is like NFL and baseball having huge money and huge sponsorships and huge interest from the American population. And if we can draw those people into cycling Um, you know, that's, that's what it's gonna take to make this like, super healthy again, like it was 20 years ago. So I mean, I'm stoked. I think it's all for the better. And you know, you get some people hating on gravel here and there, whatever. But it's like, it's good for our sport. It's all the same. We're all cycling, what's good for gravel is good for road is good for cyclocross, we just need people to be excited about it, we need it to be interesting, because it can be such a sterile thing with really nerdy analytics, and it's just like, it's not approachable. So making it approachable and interesting is, it's great. It's what we need.
Andrew Vontz 45:46
And the courses themselves, but they're both fun to race. I've done a bit of gravel racing, I Paxton, you know, probably 2015. So it's been a minute, but you know, I got second in the unbound 100, twice before, it was a highly, highly competitive thing. And you had people like Ashton Lambie, and Steven Hyde, and Peter Seagal showing up. But, you know, I think part of what's compelling is the format itself, the terrain, and it seems like it's really pulling in a new generation of racers, and then it's also generating, at least among people covering the sport. And among some of the individuals who have large platforms, there seems to be a lot of drama around, you know, which writers are showing up? Why people coming over from Europe, it kind of reminds me of the early days of, you know, like the dawn Myra era of norba, racing, almost when the similar thing started to happen. What does it feel like for you as someone inside the sport at the very highest level? How is the sport transforming? And what do you think it's, it's doing both from a competitive point of view and for the people following the sport?
Tobin Ortenblad 47:03
Yeah, so I mean, for people following and, or participating, that aren't necessarily at the pointy end of like a professional race, I think that something that's really cool for those people is to be able to do their event in their race or their writing whatever capacity, they're trying to do it, whether that be, I'm trying to go and like go as fast as I can and hang on to the pros as long as I can. Or I'm trying to go out and just complete this, or I'm trying to go have a good day with my friends or whatever. I think that something that is really cool is that at the end of the day, when they finish, and we finish, and everyone's at the expo, we all did the same course. So we get to talk about the same things in the same experience is really because like some of these courses have some grueling features, or some have some pretty views, or some of them have like, an open cattle range with cows all over that you had to not hit. And at the end of the day, we get to talk about that shared experience, because we all did the same course. And that is like, that's a pretty unique I don't think that exists in any other sport, you don't get like professional baseball players and other baseball players that did the same thing there. Because it's, it's not and then at the end of the day, they can just walk up to their favorite pro and just like be like, that was cool, or I love to meet you or whatever it is. And I don't think there's anything else like that, really in the world. So I think that's huge. And then I guess as far as like the drama and something to follow from a spectator, like there's a lot of it's kind of the Wild West, like there's not like a ton of like super steadfast rules, like there's obviously like, doping control, right. But as far as like it's almost like, I mean, I don't compare it to Formula One, but there's strategy right to like feeding and pitting and how much water you're gonna carry in your fueling and when and where you're going to do that. And like we see, we see little snippets of like, drum all over the place like Keegan at steamboat last year, you know, like Peter step knows young because Keegan like said, Peter said he like skipped a feed but Keegan like didn't skip a feed. He just had a camel back on and he didn't need to stop and Pete had done the same thing somewhere else. So it's like, it's just kind of like out strategizing each other and I truly believe that like, no one is going to capitalize on someone's like, if someone stops to fill their bottle of feeds, someone's not like out of the saddle sprinting, attacking them. But like, if you can keep rolling and they got to chase you. You're gonna take that opportunity every chance you get. And then there's always the strategizing of like, what tires do I run? Do I run a faster tire and risk flooding or crashing? Do I run the heavier tire and know that I'm not going to flat like, it's such a it's such a dynamic race with so many variables that you need to think about and plan for, that you just don't have in any other sport like especially cyclocross, like cyclocross. You run a 33 millimeter tire and you don't feed you just go out there and hammer and try to you know, outmaneuver each other and I think that's obviously awesome to what gravel has, you know, do you want bottles on your bike? Do you want to pit here? Do you have this in case you flat? What tires? Are you running? Are you gonna run a hydration pack? You know, one thing after another, so? Yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of the cool drama that people are like, enjoying watching?
Andrew Vontz 51:00
What's your favorite course?
Tobin Ortenblad 51:02
Hmm. Man, honestly, my favorite course is, well, race is lost and found, which is in Northern California. It's kind of near. I guess the closest big town would be Truckee, and I it's off of Highway. I think it's called highway 89. You're trucking, you take that into this valley and the races in this town called Portola. And it's a gravel race is 100 miles. And it's kind of the first gravel event ever did. And it's just grueling. Like it's nasty. It's it's like a bit of altitude and you're on like, Jeep trails. Sometimes Sometimes you're on a road, there's not really a lot of single track. And it's so hard. And you're going so fast on these little 40 millimeter tires. Like one year, Carl Decker one on a mountain bike, you know, it's like, it's that kind of hard course. And, unfortunately, it's the same weekend as unbound. And it always has been. So you get a pretty divided field there. Unfortunately, I I wish that those two could just talk to each other and just not do that. But, you know, someone's on yielding. I don't know who. But that's probably the most fun gravel race I've ever done. But, you know, I'm going to do a lot of new ones this year, too. And BWI Arizona last week was also really fun. They're all just so fun, because like, you're just going so hard the whole time. And yeah, just trying to keep it together. But I'm gonna say Lost and Found hands down.
Andrew Vontz 52:40
How has the logistical complexity of what you do just moving equipment around? Like right now you're in Tucson with Keegan, your training there? Is it more or less complex than it used to be when you were more primarily focused focused on cyclocross and what goes into all the logistics and ops with what you're doing?
Tobin Ortenblad 53:02
So yeah, we got two sides of I'd say like logistical complexities. cyclocross is a logistical nightmare from a gear standpoint, while gravel is a logistical nightmare from a support while racing standpoint. So cyclocross is to you gotta have two identical bikes because you have a pit bike. And then cyclocross still races on tubulars and tubular tires. If you guys don't know, they glue onto the rim, so you're not swapping that like a normal bike tire, it literally glues on to the room. And it's about a it's a it's a process to get that thing mounted. So when I go race cross, and if I want to show up to a race, feeling prepared with every possible equipment scenario that I might need, I'm going with two bikes. And I'm going with minimum, six sets of wheels. You know, that's a lot. And you're bringing wheel sets, you're not bringing you know, you're not bringing two wheel sets with a bunch of different tires. These tires are glued to the rim, like I said, so you're bringing wheels, wheel sets. And so for across, like I said, I'm bringing two bikes, and I'm bringing two sets of file treads, two sets of intermediates and two sets of muds. So that's six sets of wheels. That's 12 wheels. Like that's a lot of stuff to travel with. And I mean, sometimes you'll take a gamble and be like, Oh, I don't know, you know, the weather on the East Coast is looking, is looking dry. Maybe I'm gonna just like fly with only my bike case, and my extra wheel bag. But sometimes, you know, you're like, it could be anything, so I gotta bring everything. So that sucks. But once you're at the Cross venue, it's just a cyclocross loop right. So it's not like you need like some feed zone or something. You can't even do that. All you need is a mechanic to hold your bike in the pit. So, the prep for cross and the equipment is a nightmare. And then once you're racing, it's easy. It's all handled gravel, you're probably bringing your gravel bike and a set of backup wheels, and maybe, maybe a set of tires to change. So from that part, the equipment's really straightforward and simple. And the hard part is like the logistics of DWR, for example, we have Myron Our mechanic. And then we have Sam, who works for Santa Cruz, that is there to help feed. So you have two feeders, and those guys need to be at like five or six different feed zones all over this 120 mile course. And they have to feed Keegan, they have to feed me and they have to feed our third teammate Alexis Scarda. So Alexis, is in the female versus in the women's race. So they aren't, if they do start the same time as us, there's usually a separation by the first feed. And Sam, if he's at the first feed has to feed Keegan, who sometimes already has a couple minute gap on me, he has to feed me, then he has to feed Alexis. And then after he feeds Alexis, he has to get in the van and try to get to the third feed zone. So he's going from one to three. Myron, our other mechanic and feeder is already at feed zone to do the same thing. We're going to hit feed zone two. And now things start to get complicated because the gaps have gotten bigger. So if Alexis is 20 minutes down from us, it feeds on to Sam has to worry about his ability to feed her a bottle and then not miss Keegan at the front, going to the next feed zone if you're kind of catching my drift. So that's where things get complicated. And we can make a plan. All of us make a plan the night before. But you know, on the day, if something happens, and he misses like, you know, if he misses, Alexis, it's bad because she's probably leading her race. And if she misses key, if he misses Keegan, that backs he's probably leading his race, you know, so the juggling act there is is pretty insane. And at the end of the day, we kind of do it, everyone kind of does know each other. So if like Keegan or Alexis is just like, screwed, someone probably is gonna give them a bottle. But, you know, you ideally execute your plan perfectly. And that's, that's hard to do. Because now we're looking at time gaps, and we're looking at average speeds. And we're guessing when we're going to be at these feed zones. And then at the same time, we're looking at maps and driving distances to see if these things all are in fact, gonna line up for a successful logistical cluster. Yeah. So they're opposite on that side. But they both have their complexities.
Andrew Vontz 57:57
With gravel, have you ended up in a situation where you're without nutrition at a time that you needed? Or this system kind of falls apart?
Tobin Ortenblad 58:06
Not yet. But honestly, it's a matter of time. Like, yeah, no, not yet. Like, yeah, I like, I did miss a bottle. I missed the bottle. Like I just, you know, I just bought her finger slipped it. And I was like, didn't have it. And I was like, well, that's on me. Like, we Sam did his job. And I blew the bottle hand off. So that's worst case. But you know, sometimes there's like someone in the group that will just see you drop the bottle and like, we're kind of all friends and competitors. So if someone, like dropped the ball, and they got nothing back, dude, do you like need, like a little bit of water or whatever. And usually people are kind of cool about that. But I haven't just been like, left high and dry. But I don't know. I honestly, I just wouldn't be surprised if that happens at some point this year. Not because it's anyone's fault. But because it's just had to cluster. Yeah.
Andrew Vontz 59:06
So Tobin, you're a very high level, professional athlete. You've been at the top of cyclocross, you're a high level competitor and gravel and you're there in Tucson. Training with probably the greatest writer and gravel currently, Keegan? What is that relationship like? And what does it feel like to line up to compete with him?
Tobin Ortenblad 59:28
Yeah, I mean, it's gonna have a great relationship. Because I mean, I don't think it gets much better than what we have because Keegan respects me and my opinions and my setup notes. He knows that I'm good at setting the bike up, and he knows that I know what I'm talking about on tires, suspension, whatever it is. And at the same time, I feel that way about Keegan like I kind of default to what Keegan's doing and there's no ego clashing, you know, like Keegan's the best. And it's not this weird competitiveness where I'm like, feeling like keygens get more support. And that's affecting my ability to beat Keegan and show that I'm actually the top dog like, we everyone just as far as gonna go like, I know that Keegan's kind of the boss. And that's cool. And I, he's has a lot more. Well, he has a lot more experience in gravel, because he's done all the big races the last two years too. So like, I have a lot to learn from Keegan. And then we can still bounce ideas off each other. And we're just like, we're super close friends, we're into a lot of the same things. We both ride motorcycles, we like, you know, cars, all, you know, all the all the other stuff we get along really well, too. And then something that has benefited me a lot as an athlete is Keegan is a lot more like, analytical than I am. And he is reading the latest science and how to get that half a percent or 1%. And, you know, I think that's kind of somewhere that I could do better as an athlete is to kind of commit more of my spare time to trying to like gain that percentage, or one or two. And, you know, Keegan is doing that and has found a way to do these things and refine these processes. So I just kind of get to piggyback on like things that have worked for him and then adapt and dial them in for myself. Without doing all that back work, to be terribly honest. So yeah, I mean, I think it's a relationship where we both support each other incredibly well. And I mean, I couldn't ask for a better setup. And at the end of the day, you know, we line up to race and it's like, I know, we get to go out for a nice team dinner after Keegan wins. They all crossed the line. And I'll just back to Keegan when he got back. Yeah, I was like, Nice, dude. Cool. Yeah, it's, it's rad. Like i i I just feel like I've said a million times just super lucky to be in this position with this brand. And these teammates.
Andrew Vontz 1:02:17
Tobin and that science based marginal gains category, one of the things that's gotten super popular in the last two, two and a half years is riders taking in more and more carbohydrate per hour, some people now up to like 150 170 grams, and used to think, Hey, you can only process 75 grams of carbohydrate. Is there anything else that that's happening now that legal and science based that you've picked up from Qigong or other people that you've found to be really effective?
Tobin Ortenblad 1:02:49
Um, so first of all, fueling is huge. Yeah, I mean, I was like, I was kind of ignorant to the feeling stuff. I mean, I knew that like the days that I performed while I was I was putting a ton in. But you know, something that I've learned from Keaton and tried to refine is exactly like what you're talking about, like, you know, at the bare minimum, 90 grams of carbs and our ideal you're hitting 150, or sorry, not 151 20 to 150, that we are starting to see like diminishing returns on anything kind of like above that 115 150 mark. Like, you're just when you're putting that much in, you're upping the chances quite highly of just having like GI distress, and you're trying to put as much carbs in as you can without your stomach being upset. So, yeah, I've refined my feeling a lot with Keegan and he is working with never second, which is a newer nutrition company. But they've made it super simple with basically everything they do is blocked in in chunks of 30. So the gels at 30 grams of carbs, the drink mix is either 30 or 90. And it's easy to just be like, Okay, this is 30, that 60 That's 90, you know, even a dumb bike racer can do the easy math on that, right. And just be paying attention setting that timer on your computer to tell you to remind you just eat because you can get into some of these races that are super hard. And you know, you've gone almost 90 minutes without eating anything, because you've just been like so on the rivet. And so, I've learned a lot there. And this is newer science, like you've said that, uh, saying these high carb, high high carb intake is directly related to performance. And I've also felt that feeling with the high carb thing, the next I guess, bit to gain that I've been maybe just like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it kind of thing is bike position. Um, you know, narrower bars tilting the hoods in, it looks terrible. It looks so bad, but it's fast. And obviously we wear skin suits whenever possible. That's not something you got to convince anyone to do. But yeah, I mean, something I've done a lot of in the last couple of weeks is like, can I put my stem? Can I take a spacer out? Can I drop my stem? Can I tilt my hoods in and feel good? Can I drop a little bit lower and feel like I'm still making good power? And you know, Keegan's always toying with that. And so when he's like, Dude, you gotta drop your stem. You gotta tell your husband. I do it. And I try. I'm like, yeah, that did feel good. That did feel fast. Like you're right. So I've I've gained a lot there. And we're seeing a lot of other people gain a lot there. I mean, you're seeing all these world tour guys are their hoods are dislike tilted so far. And it just looks crazy, but it's super fast. So bike position, nutrition, and then just like tire tire inserts, a new tire inserts are good, but Keegan has probably tried every single tire insert that is available, like spent his own. He's spent hundreds of dollars on different inserts. Trying to figure out what he thinks is the best what he thinks is the fastest he'll test them on the rollers to try to feel which one's got the most resistance. And it's actually, you know, somewhat scientific, like you get on the rollers. And you got your speed sensor and you ride 20 miles an hour on the rollers with every different combo. How many watts does it take to make 20 miles an hour? And boom, you've got like a cursory method of figuring out some rolling resistance with inserts. Yeah, so I'd say those, I'd say nutrition is the biggest thing. But yeah, trying new positions and just trying new stuff and taking out in training and refining, refining your bike and your body to, you know, be optimized on race day.
Andrew Vontz 1:07:12
We don't want to give away the secret to the world's best tire inserts on this podcast. I feel like that might be is that a competitive secret for you guys right now?
Tobin Ortenblad 1:07:23
Um, it may or may not be but I can't say anything because I don't keep
Andrew Vontz 1:07:28
Yeah. No, totally. I'm gonna I'm gonna text you though after this Tobin because I want to know what they are for my personal use, and I won't go down the route man. Yeah, I know.
Tobin Ortenblad 1:07:40
Particular, there was some races where Keegan's like, I'm going to try this. Like, I've got this crazy idea. And I'm just like, Alright, man, like, I won't say anything. But if it works, let me
Andrew Vontz 1:07:52
know. Yeah, I loved in the call the lifetime series. Keegan talked about broadcasting misinformation about like his tire pressure, which tires he's just gonna ride because he knew his competitors would freak out and over, rotate and adjust their equipment. And then he'd have an advantage which is, like you said equipment setups, a big part of the game. But it's part of why it's, it's fun as a participant and as a fan of the sport. One of the things I enjoy the most there are less than less of these. And I'm hoping there will be more is just seeing those tech galleries of what are the pros writing what kind of seen some really interesting setups, Ben Delaney does a little bit of it, and a couple of other journalists but not as much anymore. But one last area I wanted to explore with you, Toby. And like, there's a whole, there's the business side, there's all the effort you put into it. And then you're also on the road, you're in a lot of different locations in situations where this is your job you have to perform when you wake up in the morning, but you're in you know, whatever, you're just in some better than Airbnb probably you've never slept in. What do you do to get a good night's sleep? And how much sleep do you shoot for generally?
Tobin Ortenblad 1:09:05
That's a good question. And I mean, the answer is no mystery like I'm ideally I'm getting eight hours minimum, you know, and like if I'm really dialed like getting nine because you're feeling you get nine hours of sleep you feel good. Um, something that's a struggle living on the west coast or the western United States is when you fly east, you do lose time. So you know if we're gone to the east coast or the Midwest or something and you're two hours time difference. If you don't get there early enough to adapt to that time zone at all, like you might be falling asleep at midnight, which feels like 10 o'clock your time which is about when you'd probably be actually falling asleep. But your if you fall asleep at midnight, and then these these goddamn gravel races start at 7am Black like, Dude, you gotta get up so early. So I mean, there's almost nothing you can do except for try not to stress about it. But ideally, you're getting there, five, six hours early, sorry, five, six days early to do some course recon and try to like, be falling asleep early so that 4am Wake up doesn't feel so bad. But yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, again, we're lucky because we've got great support from Santa Cruz. So we're usually in a pretty comfortable Airbnb, every athlete gets a good bed. The only thing we got to worry about is like, who gets the master room? But yeah, I mean, like, last year, Keegan, I shared it, sometimes we'll share a room, but we're both in the bed. So we're pretty fortunate there. And I think, as far as like, race day, or race night sleep, it's important to remember that what's more important than that night before your race are the three nights prior to that. So if you're getting, it's like charging a battery, you know, if you get good sleep those two, three nights beforehand to like, you're, you're gonna be pretty good. Because in reality, if that race starts at 7am, everyone's getting up early, and no one got a good night asleep, because we all have the same anxious, you know, nervous energy before big races. And, you know, I'm a big proponent of like, you've got so many variables and bike racing, and I mean, your life, right? So really look at these variables and look at what you can control and what you have control over and what you can change. And then the ones you can't change, like the weather or what other people are doing, just like, just don't worry about them. Because you know, it's wasted energy, and it's not doing anything positive for you, and it's not helping you gain anything. Now
Andrew Vontz 1:11:50
that you're doing the lifetime series, I'm wondering, given the prevalence of mustaches within the pro racing, gravel, gravel field. It's almost like being California Highway Patrol, you almost have to have a mustache. There are a couple of anomalies. Of course, Kagan among them. Do you feel peer pressure to have a mustache? And is it kind of intense on the line like the showdown between the mustaches?
Tobin Ortenblad 1:12:17
It's not it's not great. But you know, I'm blessed with good Harry jeans, for better or worse, actually blessed I guess. But yeah, I'm lucky to be able to have a nice prominent mustache, but there's a lot of other, you know, hair fashion out there that you know, you can't even see right now necessarily like bleached hair is worth extra speed. learn that from Keegan. Whether or not my girlfriend likes it is a completely different topic. But yes, I know she likes the mustache. So at least I've still got points there.
Andrew Vontz 1:12:54
Fantastic. Well, thanks for sharing those trade secrets. Tobin and I think we'll see a lot more amateur racers with bleach locks here in the coming season. So thanks for joining me today. And if people want to learn more about you follow you, where should they go?
Tobin Ortenblad 1:13:10
Instagram is our you know, I guess that's everyone's primary form of social media nowadays. And that's just at Nick Tobin with three bees because someone took the handle with two bees before I was on Instagram and they will not reply to my DMs to try to get the handle from them. So make Tabin with three bees it is
Andrew Vontz 1:13:33
you pull the right strings you get on top of the right podium this year, and I think the team manager is going to be able to get that handled back for you.
Tobin Ortenblad 1:13:41
Ha, let's hope I'm sick of it.
Andrew Vontz 1:13:45
All right. Awesome. Thanks so much, Tobin. Sweet, thank you.